Friday, June 29, 2007

Witch Wars and Their Cost

Many years ago Herman Slater attacked us for the contents of "The Witch's Bible". At the urging of Oberon Zell we responded in the pages of "Green Egg". Based on our response, Carl Weschcke of Llewellyn Publishing took it upon himself to put us "on trial" in Minneapolis.
Of course the trial was a farce.
The experience taught us one very simple lesson. To wit : Responding to attacks only increases the ego-satisfaction and the name-recognition of the self-appointed cowan who does the attacking. Wait! Why use the word cowan ? A prime tenet of the Wiccan/pagan community is
If it harm none, do what you will.
Public attacks on Wiccans/pagans are harmful; ipso facto the attackers are not Wiccans or pagans but instead are nurturing in their psyche an internalized sectarian Christian paradigm.
Recently there has been another series of attacks on ourselves, to which we have not yet responded. It seems now that things have gotten completely out of hand.
We hear that some individuals are threatening to burn us in effigy. We would ask them to pause a moment and think. The Church and School of Wicca is the only true Wiccan church that has been recognized as such not just by the IRS but also by the Fifth District Federal Appeals Court; ((About real churches: People hiding behind the aegis of a "not-for-profit corporation" need to be aware that in several recent cases it has been held that such non-profits are not genuine churches in a legal sense or in a spiritual. Courts have held them to be merely philosophical societies undeserving of the protection either of a church or of a corporation. )) has been thoroughly investigated by the IRS. Some of its ministers have been investigated by Child Protective Services. The Services found no cause to pursue against those Wiccan parents. The Church of Wicca has been mentioned as a church in Senate proceedings. If it continues--the negative, destructive path that some seem to be set on--then clearly we of the Church of Wicca will no longer be able to help the hundreds of people who come to us in trouble because of the spiritual path they have chosen. The mothers threatened with separation from their young children by so-called child protective services who label them unfit; the spouses being divorced because of their religion; the employees being oh, so carefully dismissed on some ostensible grounds whereas the real reason is their religion; and a thousand other abuses showing that still today religious discrimination is alive and well in this poor nation.
Have you ever been deposed? It is a very interesting experience. Over several hours every detail of your personal life and your belief structure is exposed, often in insulting terms. We can hear the lawyers now. "Mr and Mrs Frost, you claim to be Wiccan leaders."
"Yes."
"How do you account for the fact that you were burned in effigy?"
CASE DISMISSED.
One of the problems with the current set of attacks is that even though "Good Witch's Bible" (the updated "Witch's Bible") has been in print since 1977--well over 25 years--records of recent sales suggest that few people, if any, have read it in its updated form. Instead they read carefully excerpted pieces of the earlier "The Witch's Bible" and put their own luridly scurrilous interpretation on them in a not very inventive application of the "Aha! Gotcha!" syndrome. Let us here excerpt some pieces that precede those ruffling the feathers of the "Gotcha!" crowd.
Page 61 - "No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen."
"... the use of the phallus is usually dropped. This was included as part of Craft heritage in line with the age-old practice universal among preliterate societies ..." ((Alexander Marshack, "Roots of Civilization"))
Perhaps symptomatic of those who attack us is that any works they themselves may have published add little or no new knowledge to the body of Craft literature. Such authors are neither good researchers nor practical occultists. Such work as theirs gets many seekers into difficulties. That is why we ourselves recently published "Good Witches Fly Smoothly". Its original title was to have been "99 Ways Good Witches Go Bad".

So Cui Bono?
While you are thinking about Witch wars, perhaps you should think as well about who gains when these things flare up. Of course the whole Christian right-wing Bush-run theocracy gains as they see their opposition split apart.
There are short-term gains for people running festivals, if they can advertise another Witch burning. And of course there are the authors and publishers of what we describe as yellow-press books on the level of National Enquirer. So we ask, do you want this to happen?

23 comments:

Mom-E said...

So why not just a) clear up what you're suggesting is a misconception by being more clear than adding a foreward (that doesn't seem to adequately address the concern) while leaving the text unchanged in regard to 'child' or b) say that it was a very bad idea and that you no longer stand behind it?

I see alot of PR recovery dance from what you say here and elsewhere- but if you truly did not and do not mean that just-pubescent children should be treated in the manner in which Drew is interpreting- you are NOT being clear. The response is being seen as merely an attempt to cover your behinds.

Do you have any clarification or response to the view from these passages that the intent is for a just-pubescent child to fast for three days, drink mead (and thereby be intoxicated given their fasting condition) and watch a couple have sex before being initiated via their own sexual experience within the coven?

These are obviously the passages that folk take issue with- do you have a more comprehensive reply and response to this controversy?

It seems to me that if someone were accusing you of child rape- the response would be to immediately clear up that misconception very strongly by addressing THAT issue, if it were incorrect- but I'm not seeing that happening. I'm seeing alot of redirection (fathers bathing daughters, witch wars, etc.) but nothing addressing the core issue. Would you care to do that here? These are obviously the passages that Drew and others are taking issue with- would you care to offer your own response regarding any misinterpretation that you feel is going on?

"When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven."

"In the final weeks before initiation, the child meets the flamen, the other novices, and their sponsors. Through discussion the flamen decides whether the child needs special teaching before initiation. IF such teaching is required, it is usually very littel and is given by a chosen sponsor.

"The sponsors for the child or novice are the most recent coven initiates, though if there is too large a differential in age or physique, the coven elects special sponsors."

"It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life"

The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.

"At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony."

"The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. Ideally, only honey, water, and homemade bread should be taken, Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it. If she needs advice or help, the sponsor is the one to give it."

" You have been entrusted with two phali; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on .... This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain."

ajdrew said...

Gavin:

Yes, Carl Weschcke put you on trial. Do you remember the verdict? Earlier you dismissed me as insignificant. Now you are bringing up Carl Weschcke, who is not so insignificant. My advise to you would be to leave this fight between you and I as there is no way you can possibly stand up to the owner of Llewellyn Worldwide (a moral man I might add). Additionally, your open attacks against Gerald Gardner and hidden attacks against Dr. Raymond Buckland (a man of great respect at http://PaganNation.com) will just serve to further rally people against you. Just a bit of friendly advise.

The truth about what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have written can be found here:

http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/

Obviously you are speaking about me as I am planning on sacrificing you in effigy at the International Real Witches Ball in Columbus, OH this October. I have not said I would be burning you in effigy. The act of taking human life in ritual has been a part of Wiccan ritual since the very beginning, see Oak King vs. Holly King. The act of using magick against specific people to bring their down fall has been recorded in Wicca since Gerald Gardner claimed to be involved in doing so against Hitler. Incidentally, so strongly did he and other Witches feel that Hitler had to be stopped that volunteers were reportedly gathered for human sacrifice? However, I am not so much as calling the rite Wiccan. Just the opposite.

Per Dr. Raymond Buckland, Wicca has no central authority. Thus I could call it a Wiccan rite, however I would not want something as sacred as what I intend to do to be confused with what you have called Wicca so I have coined my own phrase.

In my opinion, you have instructed the torture, molestation and rape of children as early as the age of 10 in the name of Wicca. I find this disguesting and I am sickened by the folk and organizations, which have supported you these many years. I will take your life in effigy to bring attention to this matter and to name, publicly, the many folk who have supported and promoted you. Your ilk, the people who support you, and folk who believe the torture, molestation, and rape of children is part of the Wiccan and pagan path will be identified and driven out; possibly on National Television this October at the International Real Witches Ball.

Will my career suffer for it? I do not care. This is not a popularity contest. It is an attempt to stop the spread of what I see as blight on the pagan community. If my career should have to die for that, so be it. It is a small sacrifice to let people know what you have done.

Is this a Witch War? Sure is. What is war good for? Well, it certainly helped the Jews and other minorities who were being slaughtered by Nazi Germany. War is what good folk make when it becomes necessary and other avenues have been exhausted. I have written you, you have ignored me. I have written the festivals who have you speak, they have ignored me. I have written other authors who support and promote you, they have ignored me. So now I take the advice of Aleister Crowley and I take action.

“It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take ‘magical weapons’, pen, ink, and paper; I write ‘incantations’–these sentences–in the ‘magical language’ i.e., that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth ’spirits’, such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to these people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will.”

Aleister Crowley - Magick in Theory and Practice

Get it? The forces against you are rising and you can feel it. That is why you have taken to the Internet to try and defend yourself, but you can not. What you have said and done is in print for all to see. More over, in my opinion you can not recant it because you remain sick and twisted. Just the other day, your website issued a statement supporting your writings of 1972.

On the updated version of the book, I have both copies and I can not find what you have removed. You have yourself stated that you changed only a few passages. Now you indicate that much more was changed? My quotes come from the recent version, as printed in 1999. Further, you recently issued a statement supporting some of the content in that book surrounding puberty rites and sex.

Yes, after the FBI raided one of your chartered churches and found drugs and under age sex, you added the disclaimer about “formal” initiation. However, you also admitted that the content of the book was previously the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca and you were fairly clear that your statement was for legal reasons, referencing lawsuits. Now in 2007, your website makes reference to deflowering young girls (breaking their hymen) and clipping the foreskin of young boys for the purpose of having sex. Seems like you have NOT changed your ways.

In so far as short-term gain, the royalties from my books written thus far will be going to Children’s Charities, which help the victims of rape and incest. Chances are that due to a brain injury, I will never write professionally again. In so far as The International Real Witches Ball, this will probably be destroying the event as all authors have pulled out over this and many, many folk have decided the same. I have nothing to gain but the satisfaction that a father feels when he knows he has done what he can to protect children in his community.

De-Frost Now! www.pagannation.com

HexeJ said...

"The experience taught us one very simple lesson. To wit : Responding to attacks only increases the ego-satisfaction and the name-recognition of the self-appointed cowan who does the attacking."

So, uh, why are you two idiots involving attornies and talking about liable and slander? Looks to me like you simply cannot take responsiblity for your own stupidity.

It's about time you two geezers stopped hiding behind your whining 'poor me', 'witch war' BS and be held accountable for making it harder for the rest of the pagan community to be taken seriously and not as fluffy perverts and nut cases.

Additionally, why are so worried about this imaginary burnt offering propoganda you're spreading about??? As far as I can tell, the two of you and your minions believe you hold the ONLY truth and are protected by some unseen power. Why even bother with people you hold so insignificant? Could you be enjoying the resurgance of attention in your direction? I hope you remember to thank Mr. Drew and the rest of the pagans who don't matter to you if your book sales go up again.


Anybody seen my matches?

CatsMeow said...

Gavin and Yvonne

All I can say is you are sick people. If you were sincere that you do not endorse these activities you would either stop selling the book, or revise it by taking out those chapters. Instead you are indeed hypocrites that enjoy the publicity like they say.

How stupid do you think we are? You say these are ancient puberty rights yet you created forms of initiation ceremonies to incorporate them into modern day? Then, when you get in trouble, you simply state in the Foreward they "use to be practiced in the "School Of Wicca, and you should be 18 years old". If you don't approve them, simply remove that material in the newer versions!

You have been the cancers that have tarnished the Wiccan Community more then anyone. I won't attend any more festivals you decide to appear at and hope others would be strong in their voices of what is and is not acceptable also.

I shake my head in disgust at the authors who have backed out of the Real Witches Ball because they are cowards of any type of publicity this may bring.

ajdrew said...

Hexej asked: "So, uh, why are you two idiots involving attornies and talking about liable and slander?"

I don’t think they are talking to a lawyer. If they did, they wouldn’t have brought up the idea of a law suit in England if they were talking about me. Both I and the Frosts are in the United States and a lawyer would have pointed that out to them first thing. I believe they are simply trying to use threat and intimidation of law and legal suit to stifle my right to freedom of speech and self-expression.

Next they will take this blog down or edit the comments. The world will know who they are and what they have done very soon. The world will know who has supported the Frosts these many years.

De-Frost now at www.PaganNation.com

Isaac Bonewits said...

I have known the Frosts for decades and they are good people. The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it.

Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible. This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since.

(I will also point out that until very recently in human history, puberty didn't start until the age of 15 or 16, which makes the idea of helping adolescents have a pleasant introduction to their sexuality dramatically different from the molesting of 10 year-olds. It was still foolish to put this material about ancient folk customs into a book in modern, hyper-alert America.)

Drew's plans have all the earmarks of a publicity stunt designed to improve attendance at his otherwise obscure event. "Real Witches" should know, however, that burning someone in effigy is a sympathetic-magical curse designed to kill them. Attempted magical murder, no matter what the motive, is ethically as dangerous as attempted physical murder, especially against someone who has never been proven guilty of a crime.

I have never met anyone who claimed to have been initiated as a child into a Frostian coven, using that damned passage in the book, nor have I ever been asked to "investigate" such a claim. As far as I know, members of the Church and School of Wicca are forbidden to commit any crimes in connection with their religion.

Can I prove that no reader of the Frost's book has ever committed a crime? Of course not. Can I prove that AJ Drew is an attention-seeking liar out to slander other Pagans for his own financial benefit? That wouldn't be too difficult.

As for us Pagan authors getting rich on our books, that's the most absurd fantasy of all, as AJ Drew should know. The only ones who get rich in the publishing industry are the publishers, the distributors, and the big book chains. I have zero financial motivation to hide criminals in the Pagan movement.

AJ, may the Gods bless you with all that you truly deserve.

Shadowhawk said...

Dear Gavin and Yvonne
Hello from Springfield Missouri. I just want to say that after all the negative comments i must respond. FIRST.. to those who dont believe you have clarified to an extent your thoughts on this issue.I direct them to read the article in Ellen Everett Hopmans , People of the Earth The New Pagans Speak Out. Next , i must say that AJ DREW and his remarks that are posted in various locations on the Web are INDEED slanderous and tantamount to accusational, which in my mind is working towards a defamation of character. He has accused you of pedophilia child rape and so forth..WITH NO CONCRETE evidence to back this up. All i can say is this , this nutjob AJ DREW can say all he wants, but his little fiasco is going to bite him truely on the fleshy part of his ass. I wish Yourself,Yvonne, and Bronwynn the Best.. Shadowhawk

ajdrew said...

Isaac Bonewits said: “I will also point out that until very recently in human history, puberty didn't start until the age of 15 or 16”

My genetic mother was 13 when she conceived me. My mother (the woman who adopted me) started menstruation at age 11. My wife’s mother said she was 10. Historically, it was not until recently that women were not typically wed and with children by 14 or 15 (often earlier). I think your history is wrong, but even if it is right I was born in 1965 and the book was written in 1972. So when it was published, it is rather obvious that he was speaking about 10 year olds. Even if it was not 10, he used the word child over and over again. Hence, my choice of the term child molestation.

Now then, he details the construction of multiple sized dildos and states that the father should help his daughter use them to get ready for sex at her initiation. In the state of Ohio, the penetration of a girl by a stepfather with a suringe has been defined as rape even though it was conscentual. I am speaking in Ohio. So I conclude that Gavin Frost has promoted rape. Then there is having the children fast for three days prior to making them drink a full glass of mead, now we have getting them drunk before their next rape. And you defend this? Wow.

If he was speaking of a historic text, I don’t think he would have described and depicted the making of homemade dildos out of NYLON cord as nylon is a modern invention. So what was your point about history again?

RWB an obscure event? Uh Ok. What ever you say Issac. Guests from Canada, England, Germany, and many points in the US but it is obscure. Dr. Raymond Buckland roasted for the first time in his life (I think) but it is obscure. Publishers such as Llewellyn Worldwide sending representatives, but it is obscure. Back in the day when it was a block party, the Columbus Police Dpt. Estimated it at 2000 people, but it is obscure. Uh what? Oh ye, you’ve never been invited to attend so it is obscure.

Now in all fairness, we are one of the few gatherings that takes place in a hotel and I think we are one of the only ones with a formal dinner, formal ball, and limousine service used by a few folk. But other folk come in blue jeans. It is kind of rough to camp in October in Ohio.

In so far as a publicity stunt to improve attendance, it is expected to destroy attendance. Come on, you know the state of the modern pagan community. They believe like you do. Most are pacifists. I even remember when you announced to my protogrove that members of the military have been traditionally of lower intelligence than the portion of the community from which you come. It didn’t go over well and most of us Vets left ADF thanks to your leadership. Insulting the military isn’t a very bright thing to do when the military protects your right to be all high brow. BTW: That would be why I never invited you to the International Real Witches Ball.

Now here you are defending Gavin Frost by making up false historic facts. Ok, I can deal with that too. I can also deal with your claim that he only did it to shock people back in the day despite his continued support of what he said.

Again with the burning. Some people really have a thing for burning. So attempting to cause someone’s death, not that I said I was planning on doing that, is ethically incorrect behavior because Isaac Bonewitz says so. Forget Gerald Gardner raising a cone of power to attack Hitler. Forget other traditions like Asatru which have no religious law against taking human life. Isaac Bonewitz has said that it is immoral, so it is immoral. Thank you for clearing that up Mr. Morality Police.

Isaac Bonewitz said: “The only ones who get rich in the publishing industry are the publishers, the distributors, and the big book chains.”

Well, there you have it. Isaac Bonewitz has just said that there is an industry getting rich off of the pagan community. Guess who controls what is and is not published and promoted? That same industry which Isaac Bonewitz says is getting rich from the pagan community. Hmmmm. Herman Slater spoke against Gavin Frost, but you don’t much hear about him. Dr. Leo Martello spoke out against Gavin Frost, I think his exact words were “The Witches Bible is Bullshit” but you do not hear much about him. I could go on.

I do have one question Issac, is it true that you and Anton Levay were also friends? Now don’t get me wrong, I do actually like the writings of Anton Levay. Its just that I have this old newsletter that talks about a spell that you asked Anton Levay to cast to help a certain medical problem you had. The same newsletter places you as saying you were there when Raymond Buckland made up Seax Wicca from scratch. Its just that now I see Gavin Frost attacking Mr. Gardner and Dr. Buckland (indirectly) and I am wondering if there are clear lines now a days. It seems like Gavin wants to be the pope of Wicca and attack everyone else. Are you right there with him like you were in the past? You know, the days of investigations (oh those were a hoot weren’t they?)

http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0507.html

Shadowhawk said: “I wish Yourself,Yvonne, and Bronwynn the Best.. ”

Hmmm, why did you mention only one child? Still hoping to go to court guys! It will be fun. Especially since I know something I am not telling. Well, not until I am in court.

Isaac Bonewitz – Back to you. Please take my advice. You really really do not want to get involved in this. I want you to really think about some of the things that are in your pagan closet. I have a world of respect for some of the things you have done and really do not want to have to go to war with you. Right now, this discussion is just in one little obscure blog and I have not yet said a thing.

ajdrew said...

Gavin Frost - I recently got off the phone with Carl Weschcke, owner of Llewellyn Worldwide. He said there was no more than 60 people there, they weren't all with you, he didn't try to put you on trial, the meeting was not about your book, the meeting was about your homophobia, and his goal was just to put you and Herman Slater (an outspoken homosexual) in the same room to calm you down. It seems either you or Carl Weschcke is lying about this event. Do you think people are going to just believe the things you say because you say them? Who else do you want me to call / next lie please? Are you just upset that he never published your books?

Isaac Bonewits said...

AJ,

The age of puberty is summed up succinctly by Wikipedia thusly:

"The age at which puberty occurs has dropped significantly since the 1840s. Researchers refer to this drop as the 'secular trend'. From 1840 through 1950, in each decade there was a drop of four months in the average age of menarche among Western European female samples. In Norway, girls born in 1840 had their first menarche at average 17 years. In France in 1840 the average was 15.3 years. In England the 1840 average was 16.5 years for girls. In Japan the decline happened later and was then more rapid: from 1945 to 1975 in Japan there was a drop of 11 months per decade.

The most likely cause is the increase of weight gain in the world's youth. Some parents fear that it may be caused by hormones and other additions in processed milk and meats."

So no, I'm not making up facts.

Two hundred years ago it was common for people to get married at fifteen or sixteen, however, they didn't usually start having children for another year or two.

All of which is a distraction from the main points I and others have raised against your arguments here and elsewhere. So are your distortions of comments I've made about Pagan warriors, lies that Satanists and Evangelists have told about me, etc.

I now understand why every Pagan author I know and respect has warned me about about responding to false accusations on the net, even to defend friends and colleagues. It really is a waste of time, for those who choose to believe horrible lies without proof will continue to so believe, no matter how much evidence is brought to light. At this point I'm going to let Gavin and Yvonne's lawyers handle your slander. I have new books to finish, new music to record, real festivals to prepare for, and love to share with my family.

May you have the same.

Carol Maltby said...

Gavin and Yvonne Frost give meticulously detailed instructions for welcoming a child to a Church and School of Wicca coven at puberty, information which they have let stand with little change through seven editions of The Good Witch's Bible (AKA The Witch's Bible).

The process involves incest (a father or the guy from the coven who'll initiate her can "help" his daughter get used to a dildo, twice a day for three weeks), then a live sex exhibition showing the prospective initiates what goes where.

After three days of fasting on bread, water and honey, "the child" (as the Frosts say) is to have a full glass of mead. and then go off for ritual sex with the member of the coven who "sponsors" her.

In the latest version of the book published in 2000, "Forward[sic] to Chapter IV" which precedes the detailed instructions for incest, getting a minor drunk, and rape, Gavin and Yvonne admit that "This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca."

In that case, we'd really like to know just when it was that the Frosts stopped teaching these practices to their students.

Most American girls were entering puberty at about 12 (sixth grade) in 1972, when The Witch's Bible: How to practice the Oldest Religion was offering incest and statutory rape as its advice for their sexual awakening. This is not about "adolescent sexuality" as Isaac Bonewits persists in labeling it. It is about parents handing over little girls for sex, not to mention untrained mothers being advised by the Frosts to do home genital surgery on their sons' frenulums, the most sensitive part of the penis.

The Frosts now very carefully note that "no formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite" shall be done with a minor, leaving many to wonder whether they would still promote these practices for informal rites. They and their supporters offer a number of nonsensical and contradictory statements about the supposed historical roots of the practices, that are refuted at the Haloscan comments on the blog The Wild Hunt. One look at the source material copied straight from the book will show how its instructions are no different in tone from those of other, non-coercive rites.

Wikipedia's waiting to hear where the Frosts got those Doctor of Divinity degrees they sport. Are those the ones that your cat could buy for $29.95 from the Universal Life Church website?

In my opinion that a large and influential group in the Pagan community still continue to support people who have advocated incest and rape of pre-teens in the name of Wicca is very disturbing.

Mama Bear said...

From your website-

"If you learn that Ruby Wednesday is saying hateful things about you behind your back, a first step should probably be to examine her allegations to see exactly how valid they are. If they are valid, in a private communication say, "Ruby, I get the impression you don't like my behavior X. Help me find a better way to handle that aspect of my life or my teaching."

What are you doing, Gavin and Yvonne, to communicate constructively with Mr. Drew as he obviously takes issue with your 'behaviour X'... As this concern is not limited to Mr. Drew- what are you doing to communicate with *the Pagan community* regarding their concerns with your 'behaviour X'? As you have stated that as 'adult behaviour'- are YOU acting like adults in this matter and attempting to enter into constructive discussions?

Why not address the issue publically, once and for all?

Do you or do you not stand behind the writings that others are saying are unacceptable regarding child molestation and rape?

ajdrew said...

MaMa Bear – Please consider the following quotes from Gavin Frost and their dates.

“And the moment you suggest that a physician snip a girl's hymen so that her first sexual experience won't be bloody, painful, and traumatic, the moment you suggest the tiny snip of the membrane that holds the foreskin to the glans that would let the young male have an equally pleasant first sexual experience, in that moment all the self-appointed christo-pW's scream in unison, "Mutilation!" "Child molest!"”

May, 2007 - http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0507.html

Please note this is obviously a reference to the Witches Bible, in that book they are speaking about “children”, and here we see the word “girl” used along side “young male”. This is May of 2007 from their own website.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe they continue to offer for sale the book on their website this very evening and I find it even more hard to believe they continue to not only promote it, but defend it. Not that I can ever imagine saying such things, but had I done such over thirty years ago, I would spend the last years of my life begging forgiveness.

Carol Maltby – Thank you. I know I seem a bit over the top at times, but when one considers the great number of pagan leaders who still support Gavin and Yvonne Frost, one starts to question his or her own sanity. How could so many read that material and not be horrified? I have come to the conclusion that the only way to clear the air is to take very radical actions to cause public debate. It seems to be working. But I never expected folk like Isaac Bonewitz to support them and especially not to do so by quoting puberty statistics from hundreds of years ago when the book was published in 1972 and details the use of nylon based dildos (nylon being first invented in 1935). The arguments, as you have pointed out, in support of the Frosts are insane.

Yes, after a chartered church of the Frosts was investigated by the FBI and its founder arrested by police where under age sex and drugs were found, Gavin and Yvonne Frost did add a disclaimer to a later production. However, I believe it was not only common sense after the arrest but it was also when the book was published by a new publisher. I believe somewhere in here, Gavin stated that the first publisher went bankrupt. Perhaps the second publisher had slightly better judgement and insisted. I do not know.

What I do know is that Gavin Frost seems to change his story a lot. Dr. Raymond Buckland is on record saying he was told that the material was removed from the book. It appears Dr. Buckland was lied to. According to Arnold Brooks, Isaac Bonewitz himself said that the Frosts had removed the material. Per Arnold Brooks, he had asked Isaac because he had noted Isaac had helped create portions of Gavin Frost’s web site from where the book is now sold. It appears either Isaac Bonewitz was lied to, was lying, or Arnold Brooks lied to me about the conversation. In this blog, Gavin seems to make a big point of how he changed the book and seems to indicate there were a great many changes, however on Gavin Frosts website there seems to be a different story:

“When it was first published, as soon as we recognized that some readers had a problem with a passage or two in the Bible, we caused the publisher to insert explanatory notes. ”

http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0603.html

I do not know that the first publisher inserted a thing. I do know that after they went bankrupt, a second publisher had insertions but that was also after the arrest of a person who had a chartered church.

I do know that the above url also states that: “As usual, we invite your comments. ”

However, when I add my comments and express how I feel about the matter, there is a storm of threats of law suits. Oh, they are vague and the Frosts do not name me specifically but it is rather clear who they are talking, as I am the only one making waves now a days.

ajdrew said...

Isaac Bonewitz, almost forgot to address your comments. The book was first published in 1972 and it is an instructional which in part details the making of home made dildos from nylon (invented in 1935) and the average age (according to wikipedia.com) for menstruation is currently 12. The book is not a historic reference, it is an instructional. I am rather disgusted that you would try to mislead people in this way.

In fact, although I know that Isaac Bonewitz has been a long term friend of Gavin and Yvonne Frost and has had multiple financial dealings, I have also known him to be a fairly well debater (even when drunk) and can not imagine the real Isaac Bonewitz would have selected such a ineffective way to debate this issue.

Further, not only is 12 the average of menstruation currently and not only have many women come forward to say that during the time in which that book was published, they started menstruating at 10 or 11 years old (remember, 12 is an average), the book clearly states that a coven which is 5 years old or less has an average membership age of 15 years old. Now if the average age is 15 and there are elders, well now that puts the youngest members very, very young. Further, the book does not discuss puberty. It describes the age as:

“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”

Since you like Wikipedia so much, you might be interested to know that they point out that the average age for breasts to develop is 10. While the average age of menstruation is 12, the onset of puberty is about two years earlier and that is an average so some children show “the physical attributes of reproduction” at a much earlier age. Of course now we are going to have to listen to an argument about how breasts have nothing to do with reproduction. I decided to trump that argument and go with puberty.

I am wondering what is next, a discussion like the Frost’s about Clan of the Cave Bear to support their work. You know, the work of fiction based on Flat Heads rather than human beings. Now that one was a hoot.

But you go get back to your books. We know where you stand. Who ever you are. Boy I hope you aren’t the real Isaac Bonewitz. That would be just so very embarrassing for pagan folk every where.

ajdrew said...

Now this is interesting. In a respectful and public conversation with Dr. Raymond Buckland, the father of Wicca in the United States seems to imply that the Frost's daughter was the victim of abuse:

Dr.Raymond Buckland said: "Incidentally, have you ever got in touch with the Frosts' daughter? She's the one who was abused; it would be interesting to get her take on it all. She's easily accessible since she acts as editor of the School of Wicca magazine."

http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/51719/page/1#Post51719

As the father of Wicca in the United States and one who saw the Church and School of Wicca rise, I imagine he would be aware of more or the events of the time than I. I am still trying to figure out why folk think there is only one child involved (hint).

ajdrew said...

http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/51719/page/1#Post51719

Sorry, that url is getting truncated

ajdrew said...

http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/

Number/51719/page/1#Post51719

Shaitan Fenriz said...

Isaac Bonewits said...
I have known the Frosts for decades and they are good people. The overwhelming majority of their words and actions have benefited the Craft more than harmed it.

I say...
Are you serious? These passages totally wipe out anything else they have ever said! This is all the fuel non-Pagans need to make us all look sick and twisted! I do not want to be associated with anyone who espouses child molestation...even if said child is 15 or 16! This is all someone needs to remove a child from a good parent, simply because the parent is Wiccan!

Isaac said...
Gavin put that chapter in his first book primarily for shock effect, to get people thinking and arguing about what our theories about adolescent sexuality should be. So he put something in that was as far from the mainstream as possible. This was a really foolish thing to do, as it has led to unfounded accusations against the Frosts ever since.

I say...
Do you really believe this? All the thought and instructions and tables on how to stretch the vagina in preparation of coitus? Just for shock value. Right. Unfounded accusations? Any time you instruct people in how to be pedophiles, I say it is damn well founded!

Isaac said...
(I will also point out that until very recently in human history, puberty didn't start until the age of 15 or 16, which makes the idea of helping adolescents have a pleasant introduction to their sexuality dramatically different from the molesting of 10 year-olds. It was still foolish to put this material about ancient folk customs into a book in modern, hyper-alert America.)

I say...
My great grandmother was married and became a mother for the first of 13 times at age 14. This was in 1899, and common at that time. We live much longer today than we used to. I can't see puberty starting any later many years ago, as that would seriously hinder our ability to reproduce and raise several children before menopause set in. Any way you look at it, puberty started before 15 or 16 in 1970. And even if it didn't, sex with a minor (under 18) is illegal and immoral.

Isaac said...
Drew's plans have all the earmarks of a publicity stunt designed to improve attendance at his otherwise obscure event. "Real Witches" should know, however, that burning someone in effigy is a sympathetic-magical curse designed to kill them. Attempted magical murder, no matter what the motive, is ethically as dangerous as attempted physical murder, especially against someone who has never been proven guilty of a crime.

I say...
AJ Drew is sacrificing his reputation in order to bring this perversion of the Pagan Community into the light. Nothing gets stains out better than sunlight! So, saying he is just doing this for personal gain is a joke. He never said he was burning the Frosts in effigy. This seems to be a twist on his words perpetuated by people who don't want to consider the meaning of the word sacrifice. What is the proper punishment for people who give an entire community a bad reputation with their words? If they won't recant the offensive material and appologize for it, even after they have been asked time and time again over the past 30 years...how should we repair our reputation? I would say by telling the world that these people and their kind do not represent our Community. They have been denounced and are no longer recognized as part of our Community. And that is exactly what I am doing right here and now.

Isaac said...
I have never met anyone who claimed to have been initiated as a child into a Frostian coven, using that damned passage in the book, nor have I ever been asked to "investigate" such a claim. As far as I know, members of the Church and School of Wicca are forbidden to commit any crimes in connection with their religion.

I say...
As far as you know...As far as I know...It is the fact that they wrote an instruction manual for removing the hymen/snipping the foreskin; stretching the vagina--with help from her father if she's having a hard time on her own; giving live sex shows; and actually having sex with a sponsor in order to initiate CHILDREN (those just showing signs of sexual maturity/puberty) into a Wiccan coven! This in and of itself is a crime against all children! And especially against children in the Pagan Community!

Isaac said...
Can I prove that no reader of the Frost's book has ever committed a crime? Of course not. Can I prove that AJ Drew is an attention-seeking liar out to slander other Pagans for his own financial benefit? That wouldn't be too difficult.

I say...
Then please prove it. I do not need AJ Drew or anyone else to speak for me. All I did was read the passages in question. And I came to the conclusion all by myself that this is a sickness that needs to be removed from my Community.

Isaac said...
As for us Pagan authors getting rich on our books, that's the most absurd fantasy of all, as AJ Drew should know. The only ones who get rich in the publishing industry are the publishers, the distributors, and the big book chains. I have zero financial motivation to hide criminals in the Pagan movement.

I say...
Then why are you supporting the Frosts? Now please understand I am not going to paint everyone with this brush, but you seem to be a spokesperson for the Frosts, so therefore you must support what they have said in their books. Otherwise, you wouldn't be taking such a stand on their behalf. I have to conclude that you support them, their books, and these passages. Why are you supporting them? (And isn't this book self-published?)

Isaac said...
AJ, may the Gods bless you with all that you truly deserve.

I say...
I think AJ is blessed. He has a beautiful family. He works hard doing what he loves. And he has many friends who know him as a big-hearted, well-meaning, thought-provoking guy. And I haven't even known him that long...but I know a good soul when I meet one. And I know a blight on my Community when I see one. The Frosts and their instructions in child molestation are a blight on the Pagan Community. And you sir, are no friend of the Pagan Community if you choose to allign yourself with their kind.

Shaitan Fenriz

Larry said...

the only question I have, especially since I went through the Church and School of Wicca course in '84, is why the delay? The book has been in print since '77. When I went through the course, the information was given which I summarily rejected as I did such practices as performing a literal Great Rite in circle which has in the past been endorsed by other authors. Why has AJ chosen to pursue this after so long of a period and after owning a shop himself? Did he just now become aware of the contents? I cannot believe that to be the case. Negativity breeds negativity. I agree with Dr. Buckland's comment of having other more positive ways of dealing with issues.

ummo said...

REGARDING THIS DISPUTE
I HAVE THIS QUESTION:
PARDON MY IGNORANCE, BUT WHY DOES PAGE 232 OF HANS HOLZER'S 'WITCHES'
SHOW A PHOTOGRAPH OF YVONNE (nee ALICE) FROST WEARING A BATHROBE, STANDING IN A RITUAL CIRCLE IN DEEP CONTEMPLATION OF AN OBJECT IN CENTER OF CIRCLE THAT HAPPENS TO CORRESPOND EXACTLY TO THE SPECIFIC
AND DISTINCTIVE LOGO OF THE PROCESS
CURCH OF FINAL JUDGEMENT OR 4-P?

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Freddie said...

By denouncing Herman Slater you denounced me. Herman (The Horned God Love Him) was probably NOT trying to harm you. I was his student and yours simultaneously. You're Wiccan but NOT Pagan and I'm Wiccan AND Pagan. It makes a difference.
I love you both dearly but you have your failings of insight. You've immaturely tried to force me to marry my first cousin AND try to heal me of being GAY when I'm NOT gay or of a mind to handfast eternally with ANY of my stupid relatives.
I love you both dearly but you're making huge mistakes. I started out being a student of Anton Szandor Lavey when I was 7? I was very young.
You've alienated me AND excommunicated me for mistakes I didn't make. I know more about my world than you do but you don't want to admit it. I've been having 24 hour asthma attacks since at least 1984 and these don't help and you immaturely laugh. I'm not impressed!
Put a leash on Bronwyn because she isn't the dominatrix that I hired nor are you. Herman Slater didn't hire you to dominate him nor did I and you keep forgetting.
I knew Herman Slater. He was a nice Pagan GAY man. Nice men are hard to find. I love you both dearly and I don't want to see you disparaged so don't disparage Herman. He was only being himself and that is a rare thing in the world.
Bronwyn threatened me with legal action if I ever tried to politely explain my situation once a year in an email and I legally have freedom of speech so maybe I dare you to try.
You immaturely stated that I'm going to pay your personal taxes and the I.R.S. and I both say that I'm not. Learn some manners!

Sincerely,
Michelle Green

Freddie said...

I'm using more protective Witchcraft than you like or respect so come find me!

Sincerely,
Michelle Green