Thursday, August 30, 2007

Staying out of Trouble

Letters arrive at the School of Wicca stating, "When I was first exploring Wicca in my teens, my teacher insisted that I must __ (insert your own bizarre or illegal act here). I did it. Now as an adult I am wondering how to undo it."
There are fools and charlatans in every field of human endeavor. Since people are endlessly inventive, when you first explore the world of the occult and off-the-wall "religions" you may well entangle yourself in more kinds of problems than there are pebbles on the beach.
Three such problems spring to mind immediately. They originate with self-styled gurus or teachers out to prey on neophytes whose innocence / ignorance makes them fair game, fertile material for exploitation. In any such case, a good early warning sign is an insistence on absolute secrecy.
1. Probably the most basic of such attacks involve "blood bonding". They stem from the mind of a creep who read some vampire book and then appointed him/herself to "teach Wicca" to unsuspecting, but sex-starved, teenagers.
In the case quoted above, we see how a sexual predator managed to keep new slaves, by involving them in a fake ritual that may include an obscene or illegal act; this may range from defecating on a crucifix to bestiality. This is simple blackmail, and the stuff of nightmare.
One of the main reasons that Gavin and Yvonne founded the School of Wicca almost 40 years ago was that a group of teenagers had been (falsely) told they could gain power if they took their school counselor out into the woods and sacrificed him in a blood ritual.
2. The second type of danger is just as real as that of the simple sexual predator. It is made worse by the long-term threat and subjection of the slave.
Here an ethics-free creep such as the one mentioned in Case 1 above may force a teen to participate in unfortunate "ceremonies", often by manipulation or ridicule or threat, if the teen is unwilling. Incredibly, a student of the School spent 20 years under the threat of an Isis-retaliation spell if she didn't follow her "teacher's" directions to the letter. Only in her thirties did she start secretly studying with Gavin. We are proud to say that she learned to write her own spells to release the threatened binding enchantments that had hung over her head since her participation as a teen. Soon she reported to us that she now had a happy, more constructive relationship with Isis and other Egyptian deities. Again, this creep as well was committing emotional blackmail.
That "teacher" or "guru" into whose clutches our student fell is more common than people would like to admit.
This tale may read as a push for the School's correspondence courses; yet we do still believe there is a tremendous benefit in
* taking what you like and leaving the rest.
When you study through a correspondence course from a federally recognized body (or at least from the teaching arm of the Church of Wicca),
* you can learn at your own pace.
* no one will force you to commit any act against your will.
3. The third type of trouble that neophytes sometimes blithely get into occurs on the astral planes. It's this: "Creepy teachers" exist, not just around the corner in some dingy storefront or in an overcrowded living room. They're active not only in the physical world but on the astral planes as well. In the School's instruction on meditation techniques, we suggest that the student work with a guide. Our suggeston that the meditator construct a salt circle for protection is no idle one. We know that not all guides are groovy do-goodniks or soft-focus sweetness and light. Some "guides" on the Other Side are jokesters or worse.
In these times there seems to be a common acceptance of possession. Some of this comes from Santeria, in which spirit entities are allowed to "ride" the priest or priestess. Santeria opens up to such events only when the "horse" is well trained and knowledgable. In our own opinion, it is highly dangerous to invite possession if no one in attandance has gone through the necessary training. You simply don't know what's on the other side of the Veil, waiting for a chance to do who-knows-what in a borrowed body.
Today on our desks we have a couple of letters about unwanted discarnate visitors. Both writers felt that these beings meant no harm--but who's to tell? The best approach is to communicate with the entities to find out why they are there; help them out if you can; and then assist them in making their transition to the place where they rightfully belong. Your own guide will be at your astral elbow every step of the way. A guide stays in your life and works with you for one reason : They're assigned in something like a big-brother or big-sister sytem to help you get through your assignments. Their backgrounds and behavior closely resemble your own, just because of the Law of Attraction. This means that if you persistently engage in some self-destructive behavior, you'll be assigned a guide who practiced that same behavior. Not good. Hence it makes sense to remove self-destructive behaviors from your life. If your current guide enjoys them, s/he will lose interest in your wholesome behavior and ask to be reassigned.
Most spirits really have no need to hang around you for many years. They have their own progressing to do. Yet even when you've established good contact with your own guide, watch out for a guide with moral issues! If a guide started out imagining that death meant going to "heaven" and s/he gets assigned to work with a Wiccan, that guide may not be directing the meditator to the most constsructive course of action.
We cannot know what the guide's previous lifetime was like. Occasionally we find that a guide regresses (or has not been incarnated for centuries) into that lifetime in trying to direct your path. A vivid example is what we call the washing-the-clothes-at-the-riverbank syndrome. The guide will recommend to the neophyte that they do actions which come from centuries ago and are no longer appropriate in today's world--just because the guide enjoyed them and wants to relive them vicariously through the meditator. Also, a guide may have an entirely different paradigm / agenda than you do. It is most likely probable that they have been imbued with a set of religious beliefs that you don't necessarily subscribe to.
So--even if you have Cleopatra's memories and Napoleon's good advice from your guide--remember to keep your head in gear. Think things through before you sign for that new car you can't afford, or, after a number of Roman cokes, you bring home with you that slightly weird guy from the singles bar.
So to summarize : When anyone proposes
1. blood bonding or
2. emotional bullying disguised as occult teachings or
3. astral hoodoos
it makes good sense to vote with your feet and skin out of there.
A large dose of common sense will help all of us with our magic. (Yvonne's favorite phrase du jour is Reality Smack ) . Blessed be. Gavin and Yvonne


SecondComingOfBast said...

The idea of the kind of spirit possession as goes on in Santeria terrifies me, to be frank. I've seen documentaries where this was portrayed in real life (admittedly, I don't know how authentic it was)and it's just not for me. I could never hand that kind of control over to an entity. As you said, you just don't have no way of knowing who or what it is, or what it wants.

The same is true with a good many of the self-styled "gurus" out there. They might be even more dangerous in their own way.

I'd be very interested in your opinions on the current Goth culture phenomenon, since you mentioned vampirism in this post.

Great post. I've got you on my blogroll now. Keep 'em coming.

A.J. Drew said...

Pagan Temple – There has been a Voodoo ritual at IRWB for the last year where from what I understand, one of the goals of the ritual is possession.

Gavin Frost – I am confused. How did you go from Vampires to “sex-starved” teenagers? My favorite teen age former Vampire reports to me that when she was involved in sharing (exchanging blood) that she was not even sexually active with her boyfriend (the clan leader). BTW: You really should capitalize the word as it is often considered a religious title.

Concerning what you said about teens later regretting what they did when they were young because a teacher told them to do a “own bizarre or illegal”, I am very confused. The early teachings of the Church and School of Wicca are reported by you to have included the sexual initiation of children, complete with multiple sized dildos made from nylon cord and dowel rod, fasting for three days and then consuming a full glass of alcohol, burning semen, and so on. Of particular interest, I missed this in your book but evidently one of the two dildos is burned. Is that to destroy evidence? Also, what happened to the other dildo? Is it a keepsake for the priest, you, or maybe the father who is instructed to help his daughter if she experiences difficulty with the charts and instructions for the dildo exercises?

As I am sure you can now imagine (or maybe you can not), I am not so sure you should be one of the folk to decide what is “bizarre or illegal”. Ok, I am wrong. You do know what is illegal, you shared your knowledge when you provided instructions on how to minimize legal exposure when having sex with someone under 18 right before mentioning ways to avoid child support should she become pregnant. But for you to decide what is “bizarre”? Well, I think that of all people you should promote tolerance. You see the great majority of Wiccans think that your teachings are bizarre.

However, I must admit you are right about being concerned about folk like… well like yourself. My wife once had a discussion with a young lady who was concerned about her stepfather. The young lady had wandered into my wife’s pagan shop in Columbus, OH and purchased a book or two. She made a reference to how her mother and stepfather were both Wiccan. Sometime later, she returned and informed my wife that her stepfather insisted that she was not Wiccan because she had not been initiated in a way similar to what is found in your Witches Bible. I am not sure if he had a copy of the original without the disclaimer about “formal” initiations being a bad thing because fathers are being sued for giving their daughters baths. I think it is most likely he had the one with the disclaimer because you still sell it on your website and I have been told that you sell it at festivals like Pagan Pride Days, the Florida Pagan Gathering, and Sirius Rising.

Additional thought, bizarre initiations have been a part of the mystery school tradition for many, many, many years. Not that I think your stated flavor of bizaridy is acceptable, but perhaps there is a reason for some of the seemingly bizarre practices during initiations into a mystery school religion. Perhaps if it did not seem just a wee bit bizarre, the mystery might not be addressed. Consider, if you will, the Gnostic Mass. If one were not struck by the oddity, one would not question the deep and meaningful symbolism behind it.

Got your lawyer’s letter. See you in court!

Shadowhawk said...

Poor Aj.. Moreand More delusional every day..Shadowhawk here. Yes you do indeed need to correct that medication problem. And i am so glad Gavin and Yvonne are FINALLY taking legal action against you. Just think how cold the winter will be after you lose in court.. and think how warm and satisfyed it will be at The Frosts home knowing they have taken you down.. Makes me feel all toasty inside. Hope you aredoing well Gavin and Yvonne.. Blessed Be

Mom-E said...

... And what of those 'teachers' who suggest sexual acts with children (and then later provide weak worded 'cover their behind' statements that say they *meant* 18+- although the wording of the teaching is still printed unchanged?)

Seems to me that you two ARE the sort of people that people should be (and ARE) being warned about...

Mom-E said...

Shadowhawk- please. Do yourself (and your shrink) a favor and take up a hobby. All that negativity can't be good for you.

Shadowhawk said...

First off MOM-E, im not seeing ashrink, and secondly you know Nothing of what you speak, Gavin and Yvonne have clarifyed this OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.Most noteably in there interview with Ellen Everett Hopman in her book People of The Earth the New Pagans Speak Out. Seems like you need the shrink, for being to ignorant to explore both sides of the issue. Thats why Aj Drew lovessheep like yourself.. Follow blindly and never think for yourself

Shadowhawk said...

This is for you aj

Once again Gavin hope you and Yvonne and Bronwynn are well

Mom-E said...


I am more than willing to look at both sides of the issue. I ask here time and again many questions that neither Gavin nor Yvonne have answered. I've read the book. I've read their defense of it. Just because I am against it doesn't make me a blind sheep- it means that I've inspected the material and have come to a different conclusion than you yourself have.

I see some weakly worded references to 18+, but those I read as a bare-minimum effort to cover their rear ends legally, rather than a sincere and concerted attempt to address the situation and right the wrongs that they have written. Hell- I'd even be more understanding if this WAS some sort of publicity stunt for shock value- IF they had the decency to stand up at ANY point along the way and addressed it *properly* rather than resorting to weak justifications and half-assed statements in a forward with the text left unchanged.

Are YOU thinking for YOUR self, Shadowhawk? Have you read the book? What do YOU think about the text? What do you think about the specific phrasing used 'at the earliest possible age' and whatnot. What do you think regarding their rules for spousal swapping and sending children as early as 4 to go live with another family for a month? Have you really stopped to consider whether this is good advice or in any way healthy?

SecondComingOfBast said...

"Earliest possible age" could easily be interpreted to mean age of consent according to the laws of the state in which it transpires, and which so would set all applicable laws binding on all it's citizens. Some states have earlier consent laws than others.

Spousal swapping, while I myself would not be in favor of it, sounds to me like nothing that is really any of anybody's business outside of the coven that conducts it, so long as it is consensual among all parties.

Sending a child to live with another family for four months-I can't quite wrap my head around that, I guess that depends on what the purpose is. To give the child greater depth of experience, perhaps? If so, while I would be very cautious in who I sent my child to stay with, it doesn't in and of itself have to be necessarily be unwholesome.

Some children have the idea when they leave their homes and go out in the world, everybody is going to treat them (i.e., spoil them) just like their parents did. I've known people-and still know people-who well into their adult lives never matured, because their parents just didn't insist they take any kind of responsibility. Pretty damn sad, really. I can see where spending some time with a different, trusted family, might give them some perspective on how life really is.

As for sexual initiations, personally I prefer to leave the sex out of the coven life, period. But if there are covens who feel differently, more power to 'em, so long as there is nothing illegal, and so long as it is, as I said, consensual.

Shadowhawk said...

My opinions on what was written in the Witches Bible is this i dont agree with everything in it. No body will. But i do recognize the first amendment right to free speech.My beef with AJ DREW, is his insistance that the Frosts have practiced what was written in that regard. All he has for his evidence is articles from Wikipedia, and heresay from individuals who could make something up as easily as anyone could tell the truth. SERIOUS evidence is needed to back his claims.. Victims, witnesses police reports, physical evidence.., And in all that Aj Drew has not provided any of that. And as far as the weak 18plus disclaimer, once again ill point out a stronger one.. The interview with Gavin and Yvonne in Ellen Everett Hopmans People of The Earth the New Pagans speak out

Immacolotta said...

Well it's not so much that Mr.Drew is on a vendetta for The Frosts, but by taking their own suggestions from "The Solitary Wiccan Bible" (around pg 216 or something)with a face-to-face discussion. He's not attacking their beliefs of the Wiccan faith, he just seems to want to know how they stand on the words that they have written and support. What about the old adage:"DO as I say, and not as I do", or possibly "talk the talk or walk the walk..."
The Frosts have written about something that just needs some clarification on their parts so that on the whole, the rest of the Wiccan community won't be in a witchwar struggle over who is right and who is wrong. This is just a plea to The Frosts to openly say what the basis of the original (and reprinted information) on the use of dildos and what is read as child rape and ritual abuse.
This constant attacking of each other ShadowHawk, just shows that you too haven't read all the words that your teachers, The Frosts,have taught you. They deeply support "Harm none", and you are showing yourself to be someone that has no qualms with "harming". I'm not attacking you, but you should be less negative in a world that is so full of negativity as it is. If you have no fear in what The Frosts would have to say about what Mr.Drew brings up, then you too should encourage them to make a statement to end all statements. Their silence is coming off as guilt.

Shadowhawk said...

To Clarify the Frostsare not my teachers.. and SECONDLY like i will say again THEY HAVE discussed this.. that is the interview with Ellen Everett Hopman.. and no Aj Drew has stated hos intentions.. To sacrifice them in effigy and to ouster them from the pagan community. recently the Frosts have contacted a lawyer to deal with this issue.. I applaud them for doing so

The Voice of Reason said...

Immacolotta said...
Well it's not so much that Mr.Drew is on a vendetta for The Frosts, but by taking their own suggestions from "The Solitary Wiccan Bible" (around pg 216 or something)with a face-to-face discussion.

He's not attacking their beliefs of the Wiccan faith, he just seems to want to know how they stand on the words that they have written and support.

Madam, I am sure you mean well..But could you tell me WHERE in The Solitary Wiccan Bible, that you state Drew is following the suggestions of, it states that if you dont' agree with someone, you should burn them in effigy?

Have you perhaps read anything on sympathetic magick?

As Shadow Hawk stated, the Frost's have repeatedly defended themselves, calmly and with grace provided answers to your questions and backed those answers up with documentation, not necessarily of their own writing.

But in alternative, no one wants to accept their answers, you just want something to BITCH about and this is the flavor of the month.

Welcome to the Witch War. I hope everyone who is perpetuating Drew's handiwork and running around with their heads up his backside is enjoying the view.

What the heck is wrong with discussing the topic at hand instead of taking the topic, twisting it and attacking the Frosts with it? Does it make you feel better? Do you hope to gain some recognition or glory from it? You speak out against perversion...yet look at your own twisted behavior.

Jesus H Christ on Rubber Crutches folk, you call yourselves Wiccan? MOVE ON to a different subject.

Shadow Hawk, long time no hear! Give me a call and let me know if you're coming to the PPD. Gavin and Yvonne will be there.

Breathe light,

Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
Fayetteville AR
Sept 15, 2007

The Voice of Reason said...

Gavin and Yvonne,

Great post! And oh so true. My favorite preditor, and I know we've all met at least one, is the "Reincarnated Druid Priest".

The one I met had only females in his coven and he had slept with about 97% of them without the knowledge or approval of his wife and HPS.

His wife and HPS of the coven was a very fragile woman with some very real mental illnesses. She had a very bad habit of not taking the prescribed meds for said illness. I attribute this as the reason she was so unaware of what he was doing right under her nose.

Upon discovering his infidelities she quietly walked into the bathroom and took her life.

Now don't get me wrong. I think sex is the best thing since chocolate syrup. I have no qualms about polyamorous relationships. But in reality they should be thoroughly discussed and agreed upon in advance, by ALL parties. So, far be it from me to dictate or set judgement on anyone's personal beliefs or practices.

But this man used his wife's illness, by telling his coven members how sick she was and how she couldn't take care of his "needs". Of course they were young and naive. So they felt sorry for him and many of them jumped that the "honor" of being the chalice of the HP.

So until he was literally caught with his dick in a novices mouth, he had the perfect redneck male fantasy. I say this because I like to think our Pagan men are a more evolved and enlightened.

Needless to say, the women involved ran like the Christian Devil had appeared in flesh and was hauling all Pagans to the fiery pit. Being widely known in our lil Pagan Community, many of them called me to talk about the turn of events. Every single one of them eventually experessed feelings of responsibility for the HPS death.

And it's not like this catastophe was just contained to the HP's coven. After the sheriff's "investigation" and the discovery of "occult" items. The local newpaper was only too glad to report that the HPS had taken her life because of bizzare sexual practices of their WICCAN belief.

Yes, the Wiccan religion stepped backward about 40 years in that lil town the day that paper appeared on the newsstands. And never having been one to hide in the broom closet you can imagine the phone calls we got at our house!

All this because some Bozo couldn't keep his dick in his pants and under the guise of being Wiccan sat a stable of ponies up for himself.

Whatever became of him? I know not. He wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms by what was left of the Pagan Community after his actions and last I heard he was up around Kansas City somewhere. As far as I know the women who were involved either went back to their Christian roots or became Solitary Pratitioners. As of six months ago, there still are no active groups in that lil town and the Christians plan on keeping it that way.

May the Light of the Goddess always brighten your Path,

Debra Ravenswood

Mom-E said...

Pagan Temple,

Given your answer to that question, it is evident to me that you have not actually read the book in question. I suggest that you do and then this can be discussed further. Here is a page with quotes if you would like to inform yourself.

I have no problem with spousal swapping- but I don't think it's the place of the coven to make it mandatory. I think that's something that should be between the spouses themselves as something that isn't part of a coven situation/rule.

As for the child exchange- OLDER children I could certainly see and even support. But starting at the age of 4? That is FAR too young IMO.

Regarding consent laws- NO state has consent laws under the age of 16. Many states have 18 as their age of consent- and many that have 16 listed make allowances for situations that would raise the age of consent (such as if it were with an adult or someone else in a position of authority over or 'power over' the child.) The reference to the start of menses would make such an initiation well before any age of consent were reached.

I agree regarding sexual initiations. However- what was written in this book IS illegal. Skip the forward and it is child rape. With the forward- it is a weakly worded legal safety net justifying the practice and thumbing a nose at childrens safety and wellbeing.

Mom-E said...


What AJ and others have said is that, given the writing, it is only common sense to BELIEVE that they may have done what they'd written about.

Honestly Shadowhawk- if someone were pointing to something that YOU wrote and said 'OMGs- that is advocating child rape!' what would be the first thing you would do?

If it were me, the FIRST thing I would do would be to EXTREMELY vocally correct any misconception along that line and PROFUSELY apoligize for ANY misunderstanding that had occurred. I don't see the Frosts doing anything of the sort. I see them standing behind what was written and equating it to fathers bathing their children and being accused of pedophilia.

I've seen so much by way of justification for what was written and VERY little (bare minimum to cover their rear ends legally) to address the concerns. WHY IS THAT?

The Voice of Reason said...

Mom-e wrote:

"it is only common sense to BELIEVE that they may have done what they'd written about."

I'm sure you're a really nice person and would like only the best for everyone involved in this. But before you or any of Drew's other follwers continue with your rantings and ravings regarding the Frosts and their writings. You might possibly consider this....Misconception of the words "common sense" and the word "may" have caused many people to find themselves in court facing civil charges.

Does the words "libel or slander" mean anything to anyone in here?

In light of Drew's actions and his followers continued persecution of the Frost's. They have employed an attorney and he is in the processs of collecting libelous commentary made by Drew and his followers in preparation for civil action against such individuals. I'm sure that the Pagan Nation Blog commentaries are already on his desk.

Here's some facts you might consider before you continue to ignore the topic at hand and continually in your attacks on the Frosts and the people who are here to read the Frosts blog.

FACT: The Frost's wrote the "dildo section" of the Good Witches Bible and released it for publication in 1976.

FACT: Although Herman Slater and Carl Weschcke found the Frost's guilty at a "mock" trial, there has NEVER been any proof of sexual misconduct or molestation at the hands of the Frosts.

FACT: In light of the Pagan Communities outrage at the first publishing, the Frost's rewrote portions of the newer editions and added addendums and disclaimers to the Good Witches Bible.

FACT: One of their current lectures is "Gavin and Yvonne Tell All" which is an informal sit down question and answer session in which the Frost's once again reinterate the reasoning behind their writings and what they have done to heal the communities outrage.

I suggest those of you who are speaking "off the cuff" attend one of their "Gavin and Yvonne Tell All" lectures before you continue with your "may", "have" and "could's" based on the rantings of a mentally ill man.

Because when it comes time for court, you KNOW who's going to be falling back on that claim of "mental illness"....where does that leave you, his followers?

I truly believe we as good Pagans can find unity and harmony among ourselves amidst the negative outbursts of those who would do us harm.

Love and light,

Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic

Shadowhawk said...

To clarify a couple things
First the Witches Bible was published in 1972

Secondly the mock trial was more over distates shall i say over the lifestyle and methods of Herman Slater.It was purported to be an attempt to smooth over certain bad feelings and deal with issues

Aj Drew has even gone so far as to TRY to turn Raymond Buckland against Gavin like Aj thinks he can influence a man who has been friendly toward Gavin for many years

My opinions on sexual initiations is this.. Paganism in its purest sense is a Fertility Cult.. and to be fertile one must be sexual. In that vein some wiccans/pagans are a bit touchy about gays/lesbians involved in it , mostly because of the same sexs in-abillity to be fertile.. im not espousing this just stating it as it is.
i believe sexual initiations can be a method in which that individual can more full experience the mysterys of nature and the connection to deity.So i would not throw sexual initiations out totally

And lastly, i will continue to follow this issue, i will continue to comment, i will continue to support the Frosts. Hopefully this legal action will be what is need to end this fiasco


The Voice of Reason said...

Yes, Shadow Hawk you are correct the original Witches Bible was published in 1972 by Nash Publishing.

But if you notice the topic of these rants have been aimed at the Good Witches Bible, which was published in 1974.

The copy I own is the 1974 edition, so I feel it is the only one I am qualified to comment on.

When the Frost's arrive at my house this month, I will be buying a copy of one of the more recently released copies that has the disclaimers.

I guess according to Drew, that makes me and a spreader of pediophilic materials.

I just checked to see how much a 1972 version of the Witches Bible was bringing. As of about five minutes ago, I found them in the $115 to $225 dollar range.

Wonder what's driving up those prices? I bet that's not what Drew was hoping for when he started this Witch War!

Shadowhawk said...

Heres another blog talking about Aj Drew

Also if you would like to email me Debra you can at

and yes i saw that on amazon.. ive seen them on ebay for 175

Bubba C said...

"I just checked to see how much a 1972 version of the Witches Bible was bringing. As of about five minutes ago, I found them in the $115 to $225 dollar range.

Wonder what's driving up those prices? I bet that's not what Drew was hoping for when he started this Witch War!"

That would put it firmly out of the price range of most of the Wiccans I know, especialy the young ones.

Hmm, I wonder.

A.J. Drew said...

The Witches Bible / The Good Witches Bible

What did the Frosts actually write?

Chapter IV

“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”

Note the use of the word “child”. As I understand this statement we are speaking about prepubescent / onset of puberty. Perhaps the age of 10.

“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “

Note that according to this statement, it seems what follows would have been led by Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the Heads of their Coven.

“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”
Note: Note the use of the word “child” in this sentence. Note also that this sentence appears in the same discussion as the reference to the age being the onset of puberty. Obviously, we are speaking of children well under legal age and apparently about 10 years of age.

“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”

Note: I did not know that home genital surgery was part the Wiccan religion.

“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”

Note: There are two phalluses. One large, one small. There are instructions for making them using wood dowels, nylon cord, and wax. The object of this exercise appears to be to stretch the virgin vagina to make it ready for coitus.
Remember, as we discussed earlier we might be speaking about a 10 year old girl.

Table Five contains the following instructions

“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”

Note: As I understand this, a 10 year old girls father should help her with the home made phalli? In the state of Ohio, this is rape. In any state, this is obscene.

“After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.”

Note: The table provides the time and schedule to use the two devices of differing sizes.

“The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. ”

Note: The importance of fasting will become evident later.

“Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. “
Note: As I understand this passage, this states that a live sex show should be given to children as early as the age of 10 years of age.

“The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it.”

Note: As I understand this statement, children the age of 10 years old should make decisions on the use or lack of use of birth control prior to having sex.

“The flamenca gives the novice a full glass of mead.”

Note: While I am not a doctor, I believe the result of having a child or most adults fast for three days and then drink a “full glass” of a high carbohydrate alcoholic beverage would be near instant intoxication.

“Bring back the fruits of your sponsor’s body”

Note: Although the instruction is not specifically to go have sex, with the wording of the preparation, this instruction is not hidden at this point. So at this point, we might be speaking of a 10 year old girl, removed from her parents care, raped by her father with a series of home made dildos, fasting for three days, intoxicated on mead, and told to go have sex with her sponsor. In the case of a male child, skip the dildo and include genital surgery.

“Does the novice now understand the meaning of life?”

“Do you still wish to be a member of this coven?”

Note: Some final highlights remember we are obviously talking about “children” and seem to be talking about children as early as the age of 10 years old.

“Do you have the fruits of your body (sponsors body)?”

“I will use my sex for good;”

“She symbolically whips him with his own whip. He kisses her foot, she helps him to rise. He points to his ankh (symbol of the God’s authority) at her. She falls to the ground. He symbolically whips her. She kisses his foot; he helps her to rise. “

“The symbology [SIC] of the meek overcoming the strong and the godhead overcoming all, even the flamenca, is easy to understand, but has been the cause of many attacks by the establishment, who freely change “foot” to “backside”.

Note: Interesting use of the word “establishment”. When combined with the pedophilia, I find this use of the word alarmingly similar to other religious organizations, which have turned my stomach.

Chapter VII – Perils and Precautions – All quotes and page numbers are from the 1972 edition of The Witches Bible.

“At the end of this chapter you will find an additional section covering the problems you may encounter with the local temporal and civil authorities. Precautions and cures for these ills do not fall within the scope of the present book, but on your getting a good lawyer”.

Section title “Temporal Authorities and Law” – page 181 at the end of the chapter VII.

“First and foremost, check your local laws so that if you have to bend or break any of them, at least you’ll know the risks you run. The following should be checked.”

“Carnal Knowledge
The daughter of a local Wiccan couple wishes to join the coven. She is sixteen. May she join? The answer in most states is that when she is a member, all of the men of the coven could be jailed; no amount of formal releases properly signed will help. So if she wishes to join, all the male members of the coven must sign an agreement absolving the other members from responsibility.”

Why do the authors seem to think only the men could be jailed over this? Why not the female members as well? The only thing I can come up with is that elsewhere the Frosts explain how homosexuality in their religion is not permitted. As best I can figure, the signed agreement is thought to absolve the female members of the coven for the crimes of the men who will be having sex with her. Note that “all male members” must sign the thing. Not just some or the one who will sexually initiate her. No no, all men must sign it.

Page 189 – Forming and Running a Coven

Speaking about things that potential coven members must be told prior to joining, the Frosts list:

“Their bodies will be used in ceremonies that
a. sap the vital power,
b. are dangerous,
c. require sex with assigned partners.”

Ok, the above is just about sick enough to illustrate my point that Gavin and Yvonne Frost knew exactly what they had instructed. Sure, in this situation they are speaking about a hypothetical 16 year old, but elsewhere they are clear that the average age of a coven member in a coven that is 5 years old is 15 years of age. For there to be a 15 year old in that coven, should this 16 year old join there would have to be a 14 year old. If there were an elder in the coven, well do the math. Children would have to be much, much younger than the average of 15 now wouldn’t they?
But there are other quotes from earlier in the book, which might cause one to think that the illness runs even deeper. Note that above, they did say the child was the “daughter” of a Wiccan couple. In chapter IV we see other instructions concerning Wiccan children which might be related to the above quote.

Chapter IV

“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “

Oh, but it gets even worse.

Pregnancy - Page 181

“Towards the end of their term, though, when they find they are unable to participate fully in coven activities and are worried about the future, they sometimes panic and sue for child support. Therefor, all single women joining the coven must sign a release.”

So as I understand this instruction, it is sometimes necessary to bend or break the law if you want to practice the Frosts Wicca. Sex with children is illegal, so when you go around breaking the law you should make sure the women folk are protected from charges of child molestation and rape and you should be equally sure that the women joining the coven (including the children evidently) sign a release protecting the men folk from child support.

Shadowhawk said...

AJ does your tiny little brain ever get tired of posting the same thing over and over again. Face it you are stabbing in the dark. And you know that you keep coming up with nothing. Isnt your life worth more than your little vendetta.. speaking of which, check out my blog Pagan Perspectives , got a nice little bit about you in there.One day this will be all over. The taste of defeat will not be savoury thats for sure

A.J. Drew said...

“In our musings, the coven elders decided that a minor hex was appropriate response to your recent letter. If you have the power, the hex will be returned to us; if not, some unfortunate occurrences will befall you and your loved ones. We are not, of the group that sends undefined hexes, so here is what you can expect. First, in the quiet of the night you will notice a pain in the chest. Then a fuzziness of vision will occur. The inability to hold your hands still will be a signal that the hex is working. P.S. There is an unfortunate side effect to this hex. If you should have heterosexual intercourse, there will be a premature ejaculation. We do apologize for this; somehow it is inseparable from the rest of the package. As a dog returns to its vomit, go back to your cellar under the traitor’s shop and call on Beelzebub or any other two-bit god or goddess you wish. We have arranged a hex in such a manner that it will gradually worsen.”

A.J. Drew said...

Shadowhawk - Concerning your threats against my life, could you please forward your contact information so I can formaly press charges?

A.J. Drew said...

Shadowhawk said - "My beef with AJ DREW, is his insistance that the Frosts have practiced what was written in that regard."

No I have not. I have simply stated I "believe" they have done so becasue they have stated thus was the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca and they are the founders of the Church and School of Wicca.

It is entirly possible they wrote a book telling folk to molest, intoxicate, and rape children in the name of Wicca and stated that such were the teachings of their Church and School of Wicca while not materialy participating in those described illegal and immoral activities, but I do not believe that is the case.

The book was an instructional titled How to Practice the Oldst Religion.

If they are willing to sware under oath and penalty of purgery that they have never participated in such activities, I would be more than willing to move on to the next step in this matter.

That being to assist the courts in deciding if purgery charges need to be filed. After all, the statute of limitations on what I believe they have done has run out, but a charge of purgery would be current and if found guilty, punishable.

I say let the courts decide! Let the law decide! Lets go! I have nothing to hide.

Mom-E said...


Thankfully I am a resident of the USA which allows me what is known as 'Freedom of Speech'. This includes critical commentary. Therefore, the questions that I have raised as well as others, are protected by US law. The Frosts aren't the only ones who have attornies in their employ.

My opinions have nothing to do with those of Mr. Drew. I am a free thinking individual. While it is certainly true that my attention had not been raised to this issue prior to AJ's awareness campaign, that doesn't mean that I follow or agree with him blindly, nor even the majority of the time. ;)

Debra, if expressing such questions and opinions couched in the terms of 'may' were truly unacceptable legally- we would not have newscaster personalities, journalists, public political debate... I think that everyone would do well to refresh or acquire their knowledge regarding the rights that we have as US citizens and then take a step back and be sure that we all understand them and how to utilize them properly, effectively, and with respect for those who provide them.

I appreciate your polite comments. I do want to be very clear- I wish no harm to anyone in all of this. But, as a mother, I do have some significant concerns that I am seeing go unaddressed. Unfortunately, having little ones doesn't leave me alot of time or ability to travel the country to discuss these matters with the Frosts in person.

Debra, why do YOU think it is that the Frosts have not changed the text itself in the book (there is no change in text between the 70-something edition that a friend has and the 2000 edition that I myself have- only the addition of the aforementioned weakly worded forward...) Why do you think they have not been more strong and clear in regard to the matter? To many reading and viewing their actions and lack of what is felt to be appropriate response, it comes across as supporting what was originally written, and what was originally written and remains unchanged is very much abusive and pedophilic in nature. If they truly wanted to show that they do NOT stand behind the interpretation of those writings- why don't they step up, issue a statement that is strongly worded and effectively addresses the concerns being raised, stop selling the book and if desired, issue a rewritten edition without the passages that everyone is in an uproar over?

Shadowhawk said...

Aj Drew , first off about my contact info get ahold of Rhiannon she thinks she knows who i am , and secondly you state your beliefs, you idiot that is still the same as making an accusation. are you really that dense. And to the Woman who shot your effigy with 80 rounds i applaud her actions. Why are you so bewildered over that. Didnt you think your actions wouldnt piss people off, didnt you think the pagans you claim to be saving from the big bad Frosts wouldnt in time take action .Dont cry little AJ it only hurts for a minute. And yesAj things will hopefully end up in court, and when it does you will be shown for the trouble maker that you are. This is going to end in your defeat

Mom-E said...


Thankfully (for every US citizen) stating opinions is NOT the same as making accusations, nor is it slander/libel. Law is a very interesting subject- everyone would do well to familiarize themselves with its basics. :)

Shak El said...

Its actually legal to write, print and distribute "pedophilic" literature (NAMLA has a newsletter which has never been suppressed). Its illegal to sell, possess, manifacture, distribute child pornographic pictures, videos, etc. I remember when the debates on the federal law on C-Span came up and alot of people were concerned that the law would make classic works of literature like "Lolita" and even the Bible illegal (alot of the sex scene in the bible were with women under the age of 12). The writen word was exluded from the law.

Shadowhawk said...

Hello Shak El..long time no see. So let me get this straight, the Frostswho are currently in Arkansas in a state park are legally within there rights to sell what is alledged as a Pedophillic work (the Witches Bible, The Good Witches Bible)since the written word was excluded from that law.Could you post that law or any pertinent precidents to it, id like to check it out

Shak El said...

I really dont know what law AJ is hinting at. It can be the anti-child-porn law because it doesn't cover text. Obscenity laws would not apply since one has to find the whole text obscene which is impossible (this is why porn mags always have informative articles in them). There are dozens of books one can find on the shelfs of barnes and noble that are more explicite with child sexuality than the Frost text.

Shak El said...

Also, that no one in over 34 years saw need to prosecute the book despite it being known to fundi-xians speaks to its legality.

Another thing comes to mind is that AJ seems to mistake the written word for reality. Just because its in writing does not make it real.

I think AJ is jumping the shark on this issue (the sale of the Frost text).

Shadowhawk said...

I think he said something about The RICO ACT whatever that is

Shak El said...

The Rico act only applies to organized criminal activity across state lines (it was created to bust the Mafia and used by the Clinton admiinstration to go after some abortion demonstrators). Selling a legal book cannot be prosuecuted under Rico if it could or would refuse to allow its sale. I cannot see that the Feds would use Rico in any way against the Frosts.

A.J. Drew said...

Shak el – You are right, the Rico act can not be used against the interstate distribution of a legal book. However, in this country, nobody approves literature as "legal". There is no such certification. Instead, we have laws in place, agencies, which enforce those laws, and citizens, which report the violation of those laws.

So saying that the authorities can’t do anything about a “legal” book is rather misleading. It is kind of like saying someone can not be arrested for a crime because they are “not guilty”. Of course they are “not guilty” before they are arrested. Folk in this country are innocent until proven guilty. That does not mean that when a person feels a crime has been or will be committed that he or she should do nothing because the suspect is “not guilty”.

In this conversation with you, my argument is not that the Frosts sold that book 30 years ago. Nor is it that they practiced what they instructed. Yes, it does sicken me to read the Frosts clearly state that Chapter 4 of the original was in fact part of the original teachings of the Church and School of Wicca (not a joke, not something to provoke thought). That statement being clear in the 1999 / 2000 edition. My argument at this junction is that the book is currently being sold by Gavin and Yvonne Frost on their website and very recently at various festivals.

The act of selling that book is a deed. It is an action. It might be a crime. As I am not a judge or jury, I do not know. However, I suspect both the Frosts and Pagan Pride Arkansas have the same suspicions as do I and thus I think the thing will not be sold tomorrow at the event in North Little Rock.

I guess we will see tomarrow.

Shadowhawk said...

Selling a book is not a crime, so personally i hope they sell many copies, i hope they sell many copies of there 29 other books. This is AMERICA land of the FREE, face it Aj you can accuse, and wish, and hope all you want. YOU cannot stop free americans from pursuing there rights. And before you say im stopping you from pursuing yours , think about your accusations of death threats from anyone who disagrees with you, think of your accusing people of child molestation, you will deal with the consequences of this.. FOREVER

Mom-E said...

Actually Shadowhawk, while Freedom of speech IS a right that US citizens enjoy, not ALL speech is protected speech. Books that, for example, detail building bombs and detonating them on airplanes are not protected speech. Not even if the book contains 'for informational purposes only' or some other such disclaimer. This has been proven in court after the terrorist bombings of 9/11. Such writing is deemed 'incitement' which is unprotected and actionable. Similarly, a court may look at instructionals such as the Frosts and deem them to be incitement as well- despite the disclaimer in later editions. It's only a matter of getting the courts to look at it and judge, which, given the Frosts unwillingness to address the situation themselves, seems to be only a matter of time before that happens.

An interesting website regarding the law and freedom of speech.

As for the threats- he'll only deal with them until someone inevitably makes the mistake of crossing the legal line. At which time said person may be charged and possibly even jailed (depending on how stupid they are.)

Seems to me that Mr. Drew is going about things very much above board and respectably, taking proper legal channels and going about things civilly, whereas the Frosts followers are resorting to threats of illegal behaviour. What does that tell people? If I were looking at this situation without knowing anyone or anything about it- I'd be siding with the person who is taking proper legal and social channels to do so- not those who are resorting to threats and other immature and low class behaviours.

A.J. Drew said...

Threats? Mom-E did someone threaten me yet again? Another death threat? Another legal threat? The Frosts have themselves made what seems to be a few legal threats, even hired a lawyer. I tried to call him. I dot think he wants to talk to me. Thought about visiting his office, but it seems like an awfully long way to go for the purpose of telling him that I disagree with his assessment. Concerning the physical threats and in particular the death threats, oh hell that was par for some of my life. If something along those lines does pose a real threat, I can hang with the best of them and if I fall, Aimee knows who to call to make it right.