Sunday, November 25, 2007

History as wished for

We have been looking at old information in an attempt to get all the dates accurate on the School of Wicca.
In December 1968 Gavin and Yvonne Frost, then resident in Ferguson, Missouri, founded The Church and School of Wicca. The School began advertising courses in March 1969 in Avant Garde magazine. That advertisement and the associated mailing piece were the first recorded use of the word Wicca to name an alternative spirituality. In all his writings, Gerald Gardner used the lower-case wica (sic) one time. He did not use it to describe a religion or a spiritual path. In 1969, Leo Martello used an acronym, W.I.C.C.A.
The Wiccan path which the Frosts articulated bore little resemblance to either the Gardnerian or the Alexandrian "traditional" Witchcraft paths. Instead, it was based on the practice of the Penzance Coven that initiated Gavin in 1951. That practice was and is a system of spiritual development based on Tantric Yoga. Since its founding, the Church has used
a. psychic gender differences to power its rituals and
b. the endorphines produced by orgasm to reach altered states without the use of quasi-legal substances.
The official formative date shown on the Articles of Association and the Bylaws of the Church and School of Wicca (a religious association) is December 13, 1971.
On August 31 1972 the IRS issued a letter of determination granting 501.c.(iii) status to the Church of Wicca. Also late in 1972 the Church helped the IRS establish their criteria for the recognition of a church.
There is a problem with the dates of the change from Gardnerian Witchcraft to Gardnerian Wicca. So many people are using secondary and tertiary sources. Please do not quote Wikipedia or Ronald Hutton or any other secondary source. Our source is a conversation with Doreen Valiente in 1991. If you have a primary written or printed source, please let us know. We want to keep our records correct.
Blessed be those who resist confusion between hearsay and evidence. Gavin and Yvonne


Shadowhawk said...

I found this on Tantra.. Im not by any means versed in it but found this very interesting

Neo-Tantra in America and Europe
Beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s the so-called "sexual revolution" in cultural mores, along with increased interest in Eastern religions, led to the widespread popularization of spiriutal-sexual techniques derived from Indian tantra yoga under the slightly misleading name "tantric sex." From that time to the present, gurus and teachers both Eastern and Western have promoted a variety of belief-systems that incorporate to a greater or lesser degree the religious and cultural assumptions and practices of Indian tantra yoga in pursuit of a range of goals as disparate as what one detractor calls "better sex" and actual "moksha" or liberation (e.g. liberation from reincarnation, if reincarnation is included in one's cosmological paradigm). One of the characteristics that sets neo-tantra teachers apart from tantra yoga gurus is that in neo-tantra the emphasis on sexuality is usually quite obvious; in tantra yoga, the opposite is often the case, with some modern gurus insisting that tantra yoga is not sexual at all or that it teaches nothing about sex per se and that the entirety of the practice is concerned with the chanting of mantras, visualization of yantras, practicing of tapas, and the like.

Sex ritualism: a biological appraoch to the sacred
The sexual rites found in tantra yoga, Taoist sexual alchemy, karezza, neo-tantra et al form the basis for orthodox religious worship services and are also at the core of the personal spiritual paths of countless individuals. This has been true for millennia and continues to be the case to this day, despite the persecution of sexuality in most modern civilizations. In my opinion, the reason that such strikingly similar sexual rituals have arisen spontaneously in different eras and places -- and the reason they so easily cross socio-cultural boundaries -- is that sex worship itself is rooted in the neurological hard-wiring of the human body; because it is something which, when practiced correctly, allows the participants to experience what seems to be -- what IS, for all intents and purposes -- the presence of deity in the person of the sex partner.

Shadowhawk said...

As far as witchcraft and its beginnings in America i found this article to be interesting

NewsWeb Articles of Interest

What happened to Wicca?
By Dianis Lucian

Before the mid-sixties, Wiccans did not have 'tradition' names per se. They referred to themselves as The Wicca, Witches, The Old Religion, The Family, The Brotherhood, The Brethren, The People, The Hidden Children, The Wise People, Brothers and Sisters, The Wise Folk, The Kindred, the Clan or perhaps by a particular family name. Coven names were used; Sybil Leek speaks of four covens in the New Forest area alone, and she belonged to the Horsa coven.

"The New Forest covens were interested in the social affairs and general welfare of the community in which they lived. Although there are four covens living in different locations of the New Forest area, we observe the age-old rule of not interfering with each other's activities." - Sybil Leek, Diary of a Witch, Pg. 104, Signet Books, 1969


“Old Dorothy called up "covens right and left; although by Witch Law they should not be known to each other.” And this was the start of "Operation Cone of Power", when the witches, as they claim, sent up a force against
Hitler's mind... We repeated the ritual four times; and the Elders said: 'We feel we have stopped him. We must not kill too many of our people. Keep them until we need them'". -From Gerald Gardner, Witch by Jack Bracelin, pages 166-167

Sometime between 1964 and 1966, Robert Cochrane, rather derogatorily, referred to those who were following the teachings passed down by Gardner as "Gardnerians". The name stuck. And 'tradition names' began to flourish. Others started to use 'tradition' names to distinguish themselves geographically or politically. Gardnerians later became British Gardnerians and American Gardnerians. Regardless, up until the early to mid-seventies, there didn't seem to be a big division between traditions. Witches knew and worked with each other across tradition lines, participated in each others covens, rituals and initiations and shared their traditional material with each other. (But then, there weren't that many of them at the time) A feeling in the 'old' days seemed to be, 'If you were a third degree (or equivalent) High Priestess or High Priest, you could share whatever you wanted to with any other High Priestess or High Priest and tradition didn't matter a whit.'

Here come the big changes- and what I believe to be the birth of the Neo-Wicca movement -

When Susan Roberts wrote her book, Witches USA in 1969, some of the folks mentioned in the book got together and checked its accuracy before it was published. These folks included Joe Wilson, Ed Fitch and Thomas". They realized that, once the book was published, there would be a great demand for more information. Ed had gathered information and done quite a bit of research and had put together the "Outer Court Book of Shadows" and the "Grimoire of the Shadows". It was decided that this material would be sent
to those who wanted more information.

In a sense and in my mind this is me Shadowhawk talking..I think ecclectic craft has to a degree watered down and potentially ousted some of the Mysterys of the Craft.. Self initiation has replaced Coven initiations and its usesasa tool to gauge the abillitys of a practitioner and determine advancement within a coven or traditions system of ritual and worship of there chosen god/goddess. Wicca in its Neo-Wiccan form has said everyone can do it and in my mind not everyone can.. For some yes they are great at it.. But it seems most are finding the new wicca as a means of gaining notoriety and so called power. As Ray Buckland has said. If your going to be a Witch then do so, but dont say well All i do is work magick and meditate , Well in that case says Buckland Youra Magician which theres nothing wrong with it But please know the Distinctions. He also says that alot of the hype about witchcraft is hurting those who work there magick at the Esbats and Sabbats , those who seek to know the gods and themselves, which in a small but significant way distinguishes Witches from earlyer years, to the NEW wicca.. Which i tend to agree with that idea

Mister Edward Anderson said...

I'm making this post not just for Shadowhawk, who, I imagine, is just doing what others have done. That doesn't make it right.

It's really uncool to post long quotes without at least naming the author and source. The original is by Catherine Yronwode and can be found at:

Oh, and I would point out that the page is clearly labeled with a copyright and "all rights reserved," making your post potentially illegal and opening you up to a possible lawsuit for copyright infringement.

Shadowhawk said...

Thanks so much for your chastisement.. How bout you just worry about your posts.. And if youll look my second post sites sources..

Unknown said...

I've long thought Wicca/Witchcraft was being watered down by the "I read a book" crowd. I think if you want to study, then make an effort, find someone to work with, and STUDY. Books are fine for research material and even learning some nuance you might not fully grasp, but I don't believe a book is going to create a Witch.

To paraphrase someone I know - just because you wear a uniform and call yourself one, that doesn't make you a cop.

Unknown said...

Hey, all y'all
Thanks for the posts.
Remember I spent time in the Punjab in a real live tantric house dedicated to reviving pre dominator Tantra.
It was funded in part by the indian government!
Now -- when did Gardnerian Witchcraft become Gardnerian Wicca

Shadowhawk said...

I like how this guy thinks and its not a copyrighted article..

Paganism and Sexuality
By John Richards
Originally published at Beltane 1999

Challenging question - what do I mean by that? Merely to ask if pagans a whole really view any differently from the rest of the population. Here of course I mean the population as a whole and not merely the moral minority that is the Christian church. Paganism itself is such a diverse animal that it is difficult to imagine its entire composite agreeing on anything. If "pagan sexuality" exists, it should have to mean something; be definable as different to anybody else's. How could this be so? Quite notoriously, we are individuals and find any orthodox doctrine within the wider movement anathema to us. If, for example, one pagan is a vegetarian in the worthy tradition of care for other animals we share the planet with, another pagan is a voracious carnivore who hunts rabbits with his dog in the tradition of Diana, or even Mabon. I'm not slating veggies here - I'm saying that nothing is compulsory.

The food analogy can be taken further. Food and sex have always had a certain symbiotic relationship in any culture. Anyone who recalls the ravishing scene in Fielding's Tom Jones could attest to that. This historically has always been a carnivorous activity, viz Procul Harum, that much forgotten band: "tonight we sleep on silken sheets, we drink fine wine and eat red meat" - a problem perhaps for pagans of a veggie nature, though not necessarily so. Although it's true that Dionysus was never known to include vegiburgers on the menu at his orgiastic love-feasts, the Olympians themselves were more fond of ambrosia, (which we assume to be vegan friendly) and this less predatory symbolism never seemed to have affected their sexual prowess in the least.

In shaping our sexual behaviour, psychologists would take of effects of nature and nurture, ie, what we were born with and what we were made. This may be as simple as the desire, at a certain age, to scratch an itch, then the rest is made up of culture, although of course this is hotly debated. The cultural influence given, though, does not always result in your behaviour being conformative to the orthodoxy of your upbringing. Often, very often, the reverse. We do not want to behave as our parents do and do not want to share all of the same values, though we may choose to keep some of them. These values that we select for ourselves about our sexual behaviour often have much the same of the same reasoning behind them as our sense of pagan spirituality - in fact for many there is no line drawn between the two.

You may be familiar with a series of somewhat surreal adverts circulating selling us a popular brand of stout. These involve telling us that a surprisingly high proportion of girls with a convent education then go on to become strippers. Obviously for the girls concerned this may be largely a financial activity and not a sexual one, but the attitudes present that lead them to that wage earning potential are obviously affected by their nature. The sense of Christian morality that lies dormant but present in much of society was force-fed to these girls to such an extent that they became immune to it, and therefore psychologically capable of erotic dancing without any misgivings or moral "guilt" afflicting others.

I am not saying that we should all become strippers. I am neither saying that all strippers are pagans. Clearly not. But the sense of liberty to act in that way if you choose to is something that I hope we would share. This should be a unifying thing. Whether we might apply Crowley's "Do what you wilt shall be the whole of the Law" or the wiccan "An it harm none do what thou wilt" , in either case we are free to do most things except judge. Also in either case, we are forced to do nothing! There is no orthodox view imposed from on high, there is no such thing as a pagan episcopacy.

Associated with paganism since the movement began has been the tabloid gossip of bizarre sexual practice. This has served to put off many and draw in as many to paganism in general. One dear lady, after being invited to an earth mysteries circle in London, replied: "I won't have to take my clothes off, will I?" Of course there are ritual practices in paganism, particularly wicca, where you do take your clothes off. Here, though, there is a long established difference between nudity and sexuality. Sexual energy may be present, with a male/female Godhead it would be most surprising if it were not. Sex is kept as something private between two partners in any coven I have had any contact with. Always to these are to be added the ego-centric exceptions which crop up from time to time and manage to exploit and abuse genuine seekers-after-truth who come their way. Obviously these do nothing to ingratiate paganism with the general public.

Perhaps more light-heartedly is the occasional spontaneous occurrence that does happen and can be joked about. A little gossip perhaps. Once upon a time there was a woman I will call friend A. Friend A went to an Imbolc ritual where everybody lit a pretty candle and she read a poem and it was very nice. There was some wine, and there were some cakes and that was very nice. It got late, she said goodbye and ran off to catch her train. She missed it. That wasn't very nice. She had to walk all the way back to the party and ask if she could stay the night. When she got back lots of people were dancing with no clothes on in front of a wooden statue of Pan that resembled a large vibrator with horns on. In fact they weren't just dancing. It wasn't compulsory, so I understand, but she joined in anyway. Friend A thought it was very nice and had a lovely time. She later remarked to her friend that what you read in the News of the World is sometimes, believe it or not, based on truth.

Within the pagan movement itself there is always debate, to use a polite term, on most topics. Sex happens to be a fairly contentious one - particularly, unfortunately, gay sex and homosexuality in general. Many readers will be familiar with publications such as Hoblink existing purely for gay and bi-sexual pagans, together with a rather amphibious Scottish person involved with it. The other side of the coin is those of a traditional outlook who maintain that man should "ape" nature. A simple statement, without any "received text" or commandment that "the birds and the bees just don't do that" and that perhaps the cycle of birth/rebirth would not continue if they did. A criticism perhaps is what creature you should mimic in your sexual activity. Would the Child Support Agency be out of pocket if women bit the heads off men following copulation in order to copy a mantis?

Prominent amongst the traditionalists might be Maxine Sanders. I'm putting a few words in her mouth here, but you might see what I mean. In an interview a few years ago I attended she was asked (by a gay pagan) if she was pro-gay. She replied, somewhat enigmatically like a politician, "I am anti anti-gay". Surely, this would seem to be enough. But do two negatives equal a positive? The language and delivery seemed smooth, articulate, almost prepared. Didn't she leave herself room to think that "despite herself being prepared to defend against the wider ravages of a judgmental press, gays are liberated enough and need no more"?

Can we condemn her for thinking that? No, not really; she is hardly championing a right wing cause with drawn sword, merely defending her right to private thoughts which she does not seek to impose. In broad terms the pagan politics of sex should allow for a Maxine Sanders, even if she herself proclaims herself not to be a pagan - though she is a witch. The stance here is that of Voltaire - I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it. To a certain point anyway.

Pagan sexuality is admittedly a broad church, if I may use the term. Diverse as the world itself, perhaps more so. The London fetish scene I happen to know has a large pagan contingent, also perhaps does a Women's Institute in the highlands of Scotland. Neither are any less pagan, but perhaps there is an understanding of something between the two. Some of the same influences in their nature were common to both to make them pagan in the first place and such things affect along with everything else their behaviour in the bedroom. In either case there is no Episcopal orthodox pagan view on what you should do with your sexual partner, or even partners. The Law, as ever under will, is love. Lust, however, is not excluded.

Mister Edward Anderson said...

Because, shadowhawk, as I wrote, "I'm making this post not just for Shadowhawk..." Others break the law just as you have. And if enough do it, and someone decides to sue, they're not going to sue you, they're going to sue, and the result could shut this sight down, ruining it for everyone.

If you don't like getting called out for what is essentially stealing, don't do it.

Shadowhawk said...

Great.. now that you have so thoroughly put me in my place.. why dont you just drop it. Actually participate in the conversation instead of denigrating a blogger because they did something you didnt approve of..

SecondComingOfBast said...


I get your point-I think. Gardnerian Witchcraft became "Wicca" at some date after you established the school. Am I correct?

At some point, you ought to tell the folks about the night you spent to achieve your degree, and what you were obliged to do. I won't say, because I don't want to spoil the story, in case you ever decide to tell it. It is an interesting one indeed.

I'm sure Wushih and a few others know all about it, but I doubt most others do.

I'll put it this way, I damn sure wouldn't ever attempt it. If what I read was correct, it would be way beyond my capabilities.

wushih said...

Why thank you, Pagan Temple.

Wushih knows things and Wushih doesn't know things. Yvonne says, "You have stories you could tell". NOT about child molestation, rape or initiation - I have spoken the truth about that. It never happened.

She means stories about my own travels and adventures but I am not one to brag or complain about how I bumbled through life, how I behaved or how I was treated.

I may very well have titles and pedigrees but I have forgotten them.

Lots of things are way beyond my capabilities. Too old and too tired. Thank goodness for moderation and thank goodness I finally found it.

Cold weather messes with the joints. Ow.


A.J. Drew said...

Gavin and Company:

I am curious to know why it is that the great overwhelming majority of references on this subject state a different story. As Llewellyn Worldwide has such a profound effect on the development of Wicca and as you have stated the owner put you on trial for your book The Witch’s Bible, do you think that it is possible he formed a conspiracy to accomplish such? Could it have been something as simply as a desire to make money? You’ve must admit he has been very successful at that and you have been rather unsuccessful at it (oath of poverty and all).

Shadowhawk said...

As far as Gardenerian Witchcraft is concerned i remember an interview Gavin did with Isaac Bonewits in there video Druidism for the New Age Godolphin video, in which Gavin asked Isaac about this, basically Isaac said this.. That before Gardenerian Craft came to America that is was mostly bored British housewives and there husbands, and in that time with all the Inner Circle outer Circle stuff was the thought that the INNER CIRCLE witches seemed to have the attitude they were better than there simple outer circle PAGAN counterparts. I think the Gardenerian wicca conception came when witchcraft and wicca had an equal footing per se, which really wasnt all that long of a period, then things started to water down, Lewellyn was flooding the market with books and it seemed the older traditions and practices werent being mentioned. Altho there were a couple books that tried such as The Grimoire of Lady Sheba, and to another extent Aidan Kellys Crafting the Art of Magick..Even Bucklands Complete Book of Witchcraft and his book on Seax-Wica. which to me is more a Craft derivative than a modern Wiccan tradition. But over time it evolved to the 2 camps of thought. Wicca versus Witchcraft, which really when you bring it down to its base level both are acceptable to those who practice them.Personally i see the merits of Ecclectic wicca , and Traditional Craft, One has its Freein aspects, the other has rituals, and magickal techniques and practices that will continue, traditional craft is not restrictive but gives its adherents a solid steady progressive road map to learn and grow in the mysterys of there traditions. An example of the us versus them mentality can be seen in the letters section of many an old GREEN EGG issue when TAROTSTAR an avowed old line Witch would debate the legitimacy of the new Neo Pagan movement..

Shadowhawk said...

Aj does it really matter, that happened long ago. And sucess isnt measured in moneys made but the impact you make on your community. The impact of the Frosts on modern wicca is far greater than any money they might get from a book sale.What impact have you had for good or ill on modern witchcraft and wicca.?

Unknown said...

Of course, Llewellyn is such a bastion of ethical and moral business practice, . . . . can you tell I'm being sarcastic?

Maybe that's the difference. Llewellyn is a business and in my opinion (my opinion only!) not really all that interested in education. Sensationalism is really useful for getting people's attention, and the Gods know back in the Seventies it could get you a few bucks, too. Well, I guess even now sensationalism works pretty well.

SecondComingOfBast said...


I remember Tarotstar, very well, from the letters section of Green Egg. In fact he made it generally the most entertaining section of the magazine. I actually found myself agreeing with him more often than not. He seems to have hated PC attitudes, as I remember, as much or more even than I do, if that were possible.

One of his classic rants I remember all too well was when there was a piling on "let's all stand by our Hindu brethren" group hate thing on about the show Hercules (which was a stupid fucking show actually) due to their portrayal of the god Khrishna.

He pointed out none of them seemed to mind how the goddess Hera was consistently portrayed as a cold, shrewish bitch. That was a good one.

As for AJ Drew's statement about the influence of Llewellyn, damn, I think he might have a point.

I think I'll start today and see how quickly I can churn out my own "original" version of how to cast circles and celebrate the Sabbats.

Maybe I'll get lucky and my book will come to be considered a "tradition of the month".

Unknown said...

Someone informed me once a few years back why Llewellyn authors after having a good first or second book, start writing and getting published crap. They make new authors sign a multiple future book deal which new authors are not in a position to decline. Once they make a name for themselves and wanting to make a better deal, they find themselves locked into this contract. So they write crap to get turned down by Llewellyn who the publishes it anyway. I have also heard recently that Llewellyn has started to make new authors sign over their pen names to Llewellyn so if they try to leave they can't use the name they published under (and whioh would allow Llewellyn to use another writer to use that name if successful).

Shadowhawk said...

Personally i think there are better publishing houses than LLewelyn for occult and spiritual books.My 2 favorites are samuel weiser, and PhoenixPublishing. A publishing company in my mind cant be the gauge of a religious group.ALTHO the quality of writing in Llewelyn has gone down drastically over the years.Like i just saw a video on Youtube from a solitary witch who reads Llewellyn books and apparently she says that Gerald Gardner was a Dianic Witch. Lots of misinformation out there to say the least

SecondComingOfBast said...

Llewelyn probably pays better rates, I would imagine, which makes them able to swallow up most of the market. Unfortunately, quantity of material doesn't necessarily equal quality, and so a lot of the better stuff is probably lost in the deluge of mediocre crap.

I liked Scott Cunningham-and yes, I know a lot of people don't-but it seems to me that when I would go through other stuff written by other Llewelyn authors, there wasn't a lot out there that was very different.

I think it all boils down to a feeling that authors for the company shouldn't stray too far from the company line. It's kind of like sci-fi authors. If you are a writer in that genre, then there are certain aspects that are sacrosanct, such as time warps, wormholes, phasers, cloaking devices, etc., in addition to faster than light travel. You can come up with something original as long as you don't intrude on those aspects of the sci-fi universe, or call into question their veracity.

I think the same thing applies to Llewellyn authors, probably. If you come up with something really original and good, that's fine as long as you don't commit some kind of heresy. Even worse, they've turned it into a kind of mass production effort, in an attempt to maximize their profits in a kind of dumping scheme. Since there is only so much within a limited genre that can really be fresh and original, what few things there are that is fresh and original gets lost.

Llewelyn doesn't give a shit either, because when the market bottoms out, they know they can always go back to making money selling "true" ghost stories or bullshit UFO conspiracy theories.

Mister Edward Anderson said...

Shak, "someone" may have informed you of that information, but it doesn't make any logical sense. At festivals I've talked to several Llewellyn authors and not one has signed a "multiple future book deal." Further, they can't "make" new authors sign such a deal. A new author could just turn them down. One author told me about a "right of first refusal," which means an author who signs a contract with that clause would have to send their next book to the publisher, and the publisher has the right to publish or refuse to publish. If they refuse, the author can go elsewhere.

In fact, I've seen many authors who get published by Llewellyn also be published by other publishers. It would seem like some authors direct some books to certain publishers and other books to different ones.

Concerning signing over pen names: you can't force someone to do that. Some publishers come up with a series and use a name that they come up with for any writer who writes a book in the series. Usually, these are "books for hire," which means instead of getting royalties, the writer is paid a flat fee.

I thing what you've been "told" is a lot of crap or else you misinterpreted what you heard.

Shadowhawk, I agree that Weiser is a great publisher, although I'm not in agreement with you over Phoenix--I think they're only okay. There are some other publishers (especially from England) that are very good, too.

I also agree that there is a LOT of misinformation out there! But I've never seen a book from Llewellyn that claims Gardner was Dianic. So I don't know if you could blame Llewellyn for being the source of such crap. On the other hand, I would blame Llewellyn for publishing books that give the impression that if you just read this book you'll know everything on this subject and are qualified to teach. While there are numerous publishers that put out "The Complete Book of _________," Llewellyn seems to imply (at least in their ads) that their books have everything anyone needs.

PT, again, I've talked to writers from Llewellyn and other publishers, and I've not seen any evidence that Llewellyn pays better than other publishers. I know of more than one writer who choose to self-publish because they make so much more per copy sold. When I asked why they go with Llewellyn, most of the authors tell me the same thing: Llewellyn has better distribution. They want to get what they write out there.

When I say that they must be getting lots of money from all the books they publish, they laugh at me. Most make very little from their books.

Concerning Cunningham--I like his encyclopedias, but when it comes to his Craft books, I am not pleased at all. He and Silver Ravenwhatever, as well as many other writers, have focused on do-it-yourself Wicca. The result, as Shadowhawk pointed out, is a lot of misinformation out there (from people who read a few books and consider themselves to be "experts").

I don't think it's a question of writers not doing some form of "heresy" so much as they are "writing what they know." So they endlessly repeat the same stuff or rewrite their own stuff. I saw one Llewellyn writer how has basically a dozen versions of the same book with just slightly different titles. And they must be selling well as they're all still advertised.

So the bottom line is not that Llewellyn is bad, but they're doing the best they can with the crap they get. So where it YOUR book?

SecondComingOfBast said...

Mr. Anderson-

Yeah, okay, what you said about the distribution aspect, that makes a hell of a lot of sense. They obviously have the capacity to insure any of their published books have a wide market.

As for heresy, I guess that depends on what you mean by the term. Put it this way, when it comes to my theoretical future book that you asked about at the end, I seriously doubt Llewellyn would be interested in publishing it, or anything else I might write. I'm somewhat of a renegade. I don't buy into the global warming bullshit, for example, and though I haven't read a Llewellyn book in years, I would almost be willing to bet real money if you publish with them, you would be expected to if not support the hysteria, at the very least not contradict it.

Mister Edward Anderson said...

PT, as I recall, they published a book called "Ice" (or something like it) where the author wrote about how we were cooling, not getting warmer. AFAIK, Llewellyn's main purpose is to make money, so if you document your claims, I see no reason why they'd not want to publish it. I'd suggest doing it quickly, however, because with every passing day, more and more evidence points to human-caused global warming and it's likely that each of your claims will have been shown to be false. Still, you're welcome to try.

SecondComingOfBast said...

The point I was making is just that nothing like that should be considered set in stone or sacrosanct. I have no doubt we are going through a period of warming, and I also have no doubt we are somewhat responsible for a probably minimal portion of that. My only problem is not recognizing the problem so much as it is with the generally prescribed cures, which as far as I'm concerned for the most part are generally worse than the disease.

But again, my main point is the idea that we shouldn't be so quick to jump on these bandwagons and promote them, and it shouldn't be considered heretical to suggest alternatives.

It wasn't but about twenty years ago or so, after all, that pretty much the same people were tearing their hair out and screaming to anybody that would listen that we were going into an ice age, that it was all our fault, and if we didn't do something about it soon blah blah blah blah blah.

And I don't know that Llewellyn is an offender in this regard, I just used that one thing as an example.

Evidence? I'm no scientist, so anything I say would be mere theory and supposition along those lines. But I can point out how science is itself in ways like a religion, and the global warming fundamentalists, to stick to this example, as well as their political backers, have a stake in all this, every bit as much as their opponents might have.

If everybody in the country replaces their standard light bulbs with incandescent bulbs filled with mercury (a deadly poison, by the way) somebody is going to make a hell of a lot of money on mercury futures and on the production and sale of these kinds of lights. Trust me on that.

Unknown said...

A new author given a choice between getting published and not being published may sign away all kinds of rights. It happened to alot of folks in the past. Also the ownership of pen names is pretty standard in the Romance novel field especially the Harlequin Romance Publishers.

Shadowhawk said...

Personally i think when it comes to books on spiritual and occult topics i think its the materialpresented that determines the sucess and relevance of a publisher.I find the Publisher of Ronald Hutton and Aidan Kelly to be relevant for such books as Huttons Stations of the Sun and Kellys Crafting the Art of Magick.As Compared to Teen Witch and 21 Lessons of Merlyn By Ravenwolf and Douglas Monroe, who Monroe by the way was on the lamb in Mexico for tax evasion. Freya Aswynns Leaves Of Ygdrassil was published by Llewelyn for a time. scholarship common sense in what one brings to the public is what i look for.. Teen Witch will never be the same as that copy of The Prose Eddas i can purchase at Borders or Barnes And Noble. Pagans need to learn to differentiate shit from worthy Texts

Unknown said...

Ah, but I believe books like "Teen Witch" are the very essence of the problems Paganism and Wicca are experiencing right now. It capitalizes on tripe like the movie "The Craft" and makes Witches look like a bunch of goobery no-life goth kids (that's not to say goth kids don't have a life - I know they do, but some are still goobers, no matter how cool they try to be!). Never mind the people that were raised Pagan and find so many of these books and movies to be pure crap.

Any business that chooses to capitalize on the flavor of the month instead of educating - which is what Llewellyn claims to be doing - just irritates the living shit out of me. I think I would rather self-publish, like some people I know, . . . .

Mister Edward Anderson said...

Hey, PT.

When your book on alternate solutions comes out, let us know! I'd like to read it.

There's an old saying that "crises results in bad laws." The idea is that politicians look for quick and easy solutions to problems that occur rather than spending time analyzing the problem and coming up with real solutions. I would agree that many of the "solutions" to global warming are more dangerous than the problem because they are not well thought out and often just stupid.

Just heard today about a short range vehicle (about 70 miles before needing to refuel) that runs on compressed air, refuels in a few minutes, and goes up to 70 MPH. That would be a great idea for a second car rather than an SUV. It's not dreaming--they're being manufactured and used in India today.

On the other hand, people screaming "ethanol" are driving up the costs of food.

SecondComingOfBast said...

Teen witch? God, I can only imagine. I almost know I can sit here at my computer and start typing out what I imagine would be in something like that, and it would be almost like I was sitting here copying it word for word. It wouldn't be good, either. It might not be bad, just trite and obvious, I would imagine.

SecondComingOfBast said...

Mr. Anderson-

I'm writing a novel right now, I'm just now on the first draft. I will be publishing Chapter 28 on my blog tonight, in fact. If you read it, be kind. Like I said, remember, it's a first draft. When I do the rewrite, I am going to put it on a blog of it's own, as a kind of "writer's resume'".

As for a book on alternate solutions, I can give you a handful right here.

Planting as many trees and restoring land contours to as great an extent as possible would be at the top of the list.

The major human contribution to global warming is population driven. The more technological advances there are in correlation to that population, the more land clearing, resulting in ever less trees to recycle the carbon dioxide emitted in ever increasing amounts by ever growing human populations.

Plus, increasing tree and restoring land contours would provide a natural wind barrier, lessening hurricane and tornado range and effect.

Decreases in pollution and increased CAFE standards, along with greater access to mass transit, would also be a worthwhile cause to support.

I'm glad to see you feel the same as I about the problems of ethanol. Fortunately, there may be a solution-switchgrass. It might be better than corn or other such food based fuel derivatives. I don't think it will sell in Iowa though, especially during the caucases.

Yes, there are a lot of sensible things people can do. But when people tell me I should do without plastic bags (especially as I am required to do some of my shopping on foot from time to time)and that I should instead accept and rely on paper (recycled, of course), and they tell me I can use my cat's piss and feces as a compost on my plants, you know what I'm going to tell them, don't you? That's right, I'm going to tell them they are full of fucking shit.

Plus, while there is a problem, I honestly believe it is not as dire as these people portray it, which I honestly feel they do so for obvious political reasons, and to try to terrify people unnecessarily.

Bear in mind, a great lot of this may well be cyclical in nature, driven in part by sunspot activity, and even possibly by radiation emitted by distant galaxies, which according to some we are even now entering into.

Some have even pointed out the Martian ice caps may also be entering a period of "global warming". Well, if that's true, so much for mankind being the sole culprit.

Unknown said...

Just an fyi for anyone that's interested:

A.J. Drew said...

Concerning the idea that the Frosts were the first to use the word “Wicca” (spelled that way) to reference a religion in 1969. I have to disagree because the word appears to have been used in common terms for some time prior to that year. Although I have several pre 1969 editions of The Pentacle (a Newsletter from Europe) in which the word Wicca was used to denote a religion, most notably one article with D. Valiente where she referenced the Wiccan Rede, I wanted to provide a reference that folk could actually find. So here is Hans Holzer’s statement.

Professor Hans Holzer, Ph.D - The Truth About Witchcraft
First published by Doubleday - 1969
Republished by Randomhouse in 1971

“If the practice of the Old Religion, which is also called Wicca (Craft of the Wise), and thence, witchcraft, is a reputable and useful cult, then it is worthy of public interest. “

The reference to Hans Holzer is excellent on the subject because the man does not seem to be a part of the pagan movement. He is normally referenced as more of a researcher into the occult and paranormal. With 138 books in print. Born in Austria (1920), Hans Holzer continues to be considered one of the more credible parapsychologists. His use of the term “the Old Religion” and “Wicca” probably reflect on his involvement with folk such as Dr. Leo Martello, Herman Slater, and other folk. A long term resident of New York, Hans Holzer has committed great volumes of research concerning the pagan community to print.

He would later research and write The New Pagans and Witches : True Encounters with Wicca, Wizards, Covens, Cults, and Magick

Please note that I am not endorsing his books. I am simply demonstrating that even parapsychologists had already been using the word Wicca to refer to a religion back in 1969 when the Frosts seem to think the were the first.

Unknown said...

Wasn't the Church and School of Wicca founded in 1968?

Mr.Ed Anderson said...

Hans Holzer considers himself a Wiccan. In The New Pagans he was duped by some people who created a tradition and ritual just for him in order to get him to leave them alone.

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