Today let us address the most hot-button of the rites of passage; that is to do with intacta. In many societies, especially in Pakistan, in parts of India, and in northern Italy, girls are severely restricted even in their play activities. Pakistani girls, for instance, are forbidden to ride a horse -- except sidesaddle. In these societies the future mother-in-law examines the prospective bride to make sure she is intact. In the northern Italian and Milanese tradition, to this day the humen is broken by the future mother-in-law on the day before the wedding, and a bloody handkerchief has to be presented to the groom. The source of this archaic custom is obvious. It comes from the male-dominator regime that swept away the older female or partnership mindset. It seems to us that the practice is the natural product of a mindset that can imagine such things as today's failed tax-supported multi-million-dollar "just say no" program.
We Frosts have been criticized almost non-stop for our suggestion that a gynecologist should break the hymen surgically -- if indeed it has not already been broken by the introduction of such things as a tampon. How many of you ladies reading this actually had a miserable first sexual experience because it was painful, it was bloody, and it was propagandized beyond belief? Do you really want your daughters to go through that same ordeal? In her meticulously researched (although unfortunately not footnoted, being fiction) "Clan of the Cave Bear" Jean Auel graphically describes the shaman breaking the hymen. Remember the shaman was the physician/healer of the group. In fact the ancient shamans were often women skilled in herbs, in interpretation of dreams, and in all the fields where women's sympathy and intuition come to the fore.
European museums house thousands upon thousand of bones called batons de commandment. On such bones the viewer can see iny little scratches, tiny sigils. Any woman looking at them can see that they represent moon times and then a record of sexual activity until the next moon time. It is hypothesized that these were the very bones the shamans employed to break the hymen during the puberty rites of the various European tribes. These records constitute some of the earliest writing known, presumably done by and for women. Don't take our word for this. Find an objective discussion in Alexander Marshack's "Roots of Civilization"; it is probably the best source.
In considering these, what we might call, intacta rites of passage, let us not forget the boys. It may not be realized in a society that has gone hog-wild for circumcision, in the unmutilated male equipment a membrane connects the tip of the penis to the lower foreskin, and that this membrane is broken at first intercourse. We would recommend the snipping of this membrane too by a trained physician -- and for this outrageous idea we probably will get even more criticism.
The whole subject of intacta is out there just now in a very negative polarizing way. If you want to learn about polarization, try reading Sam Keen's "Faces of the Enemy" or Ed Hubbard's articles on media wars. We are told the latter are now combined into a "Witch Wars Defense Manual".
As rational adults, can we or can we not convert that negativity into some positive actions?
To repeat what we said last time: Why don't we set a precedent and come to an agreement as to what we should do for our children? Surely in the pagan/Wiccan community we can find psychologists, gynecologists, lawyers, and whatever else may be appropriate who can get together and draft some acceptable guidelines.
Blessed be.
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What you are not telling folk is that you are defending a book you wrote which seems very clearly to call for this to be done at the start of puberty and which is followed by molestation, intoxication, and eventualy rape of children as young as 10 years old.
Here are the quotes from the book by Gavin and Yvonne Frost which call for such molestation and rape of children in the name of Wicca.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
You can not expect people to believe what you are saying after you wrote what you did.
Finally, a real solution to the religious majority sexual hangups! From dating women in mainstream church's during the 1970's, I learned that most remembered playing doctor with the neighborhood kids, and hymen removal was by another kid. All survived being masturbated and taught how to pleasure self by friends, and most are now well adjusted, divorced and know their kids must have the facts, or risk infection!
Too many church leaders preach abstinence, and the members all agree in public, yet all know in private that it fails to work.
Only when a preachers teenage daughter gets pregnant, or his son gets one pregnant, do they change their attitude and actions to Real Life Solutions. Or bury their head in the sand and preach pie in the sky life style.
Education of the facts in real life must be taught even when the majority are doing the opposite.
Thank you Yvonne Frost for causing thinking persons to stop and question current failed sex education programs, and begin to change for Healthy Future of our children, instead of their over eating sugar and fat foods to over compensate for fear and ignorance of proper use of sex for endorphine release and mind body healing.
Laws are enforced to protect all of us from abuse(all forms)and many abusers are prosecuted, some jailed, some repeaters. So, be aware and lawfully keep personal defense tools ready and away from kids, and if necessary in self defense only, put the abuser in the only place they will never act out again. Good to be American.
Blessings of Health,Wealth,Serenity to Gavin and Yvonne Frost Families for living the spiritual path before the world, and allowing negative persons attacks to teach flesh lessons and civil law lessons.
Jim Hootsell do you realize what you are talking about?
All quotes from Gavin and Yvonne Frost:
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
Average entrance into puberty is 12, many are 10, some are 8. Note the use of the word "child".
“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”
Now why do that instruct to break the hymen and cut the foreskin? Well so that these children (8,10, 12 years of age) can be sexualy initiated into the Frosts Wicca.
“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
Jim Hootesell says: Finaly, a real solution to the religious majority sexual hangups.
Gavin and Yvonne-sorry, folks, I can't go along with you on this. I get the point you are trying to get across. I even agree up to a point, that a first sexual experience, for a female virgin, can be a painful and even a traumatic experience.
What you don't seem to get is-it is supposed to be exactly that. And when I say supposed to be, I'm not talking about some great god or goddess sitting way up high somewhere, pointing his or her finger at the exact moment of every first time intercourse and saying, "ah ha!"
No, I'm talking here about science, and evolution. All species of life, including human beings, evolved as they did for certain specific reasons, and that includes their sexual natures.
Did you realize that to a female cat, sex is a very painful experience, due to the nature of the penis of a male cat? It is equipped with sharp barbs, which is why the female cat resists for as long as possible-it is too painful for her.
Even when the cat comes so much into heat she is no longer capable or resisting, it is still a painful experience. Yet, without several attempts from the male, the female cats vagina would not be lubricated enough for the act.
SO do I take it you propose to sand down the penises of male cats in order to make sex more comfortable and "pleasurable" for the female?
Don't be so quick to want to adopt ancient customs. Ancient peoples believed in a lot of crap that is not valid. What you are proposing would be a sterling example of such a thing.
All good things in life, when you acquire them, usually come with a sacrifice of some sort involved. If you become wealthy, it will usually take a lot of hard work, for example.
Sometimes life brings a little pain along with the pleasure. This is just the reality of nature, and the material world in which we live. It helps to develop a balanced perspective of life, in which everything that happens is not always going to be good, fair, and pleasurable.
I'm not meaning to be putting you down, as I know you mean well, or at least I prefer to assume that you do. I do hope that you give some serious thought to this, however.
Sorry, Jean Auel doesn't support your fantasies.
"Jean Auel gave a lecture to the Sacramento Archaeological Society just before POP [Plains of Passage] was published... Jean started the talk by saying that she is often asked, 'How much is REAL? Well, none of it is REAL.' She went on to say that the books are her interpretation of facts or artifacts, and should not be read as FACT."
http://donsmaps.com/auel.html
Nor does Marshack support your notions (by the way, you keep getting it wrong, it's spelled bâtons de commandement).
I spent over two hours examining a 1972 edition of the Alexander Marshack book. Nowhere that I could find in Roots of Civilization does Marshack suggest that the baton de commandement has any sexual use whatsoever. Marshack simply does not speculate on the nature of Paleolithic coming-of-age rituals.
Marshack is quite emphatic about how his perspectives differ from those the Frosts are trying to impose upon him.
"The complexity and interrelation of these storied meanings cannot easily be explained by any generalizing theories propounding concepts of hunting magic, fertility ritual, or sexual symbolism." p.255
"Ethnology and anthropology abound in examples of ceremonies performed in semi-nudity without any overt sexual symbolism. We cannot therefore, assume 'fertility rite,' since a ceremony and 'story' can be masculine without fertility connotation... [snip] ...We must be careful, then, in judging such images of nudity, for we see in them what we consider to be sexual in terms of our repertoire of images and habits, our ethical and moral values concerning nakedness, and our knowledge concerning insemination and conception." p. 272
""We must be careful, then, of too simple answers. The cultures of these Siberian tribes are related to the Upper Paleolithic cultures at a distance of 15,000 to 35,000 years, and while we can consider the Paleolithic cultures central, dynamic, revolutionary and formative, the cultures of historic hunting cultures of Siberia are peripheral, isolated, static, and in many ways degenerative and regressive. Though certain forms and traditions have been retained, they would not have the same meaning or value." p.337
Nothing in the Marshack book suggests that the baton has any connection with having sex with children when they reach puberty in the way mandated by the Church of Wicca in their "earliest days", other than perhaps the "degenerative and regressive" description.
The penile frenulum may occasionally snap during intercourse, but it's not at all common, and doesn't necessarily happen the first time. Your child's penis should be under the care of a pediatrician or urologist, not someone on the Internet who is "playing doctor."
For your new readers, don't forget to discuss under what circumstances it is appropriate for a daddy to help his daughter with her dildo. That's incest, you know.
BTW, most of us have already come to an agreement on what we should do for our children. It's called encouraging our children not to have sex until they are physically and emotionally ready to deal with it. It's called not trying to orchestrate how and when and with whom our children will have their first sexual experiences. That's the difference betweeen parenting and pimping.
What you advocate is sexual abuse of children as a form of ritual...Plain and simple..I never heard of sexual abuse as a rite of passage and doubt I ever will..Are you so much much in denial that you believe the rhetoric you are spouting??. What color is the sky in your world? More to the point, HOW DARE YOU USE THE THE RELIGION I REVERE TO SPREAD YOUR POISON. Trust me when I say this, I WILL be forwarding your blog and excerpts from your book to every Law enforcement, government official, and IRS agency I can think of. I don't believe you are to profit from the poison that you spreading , for that is what it is, poison.
the excerpts are in my blog
http://ginas.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/08/19/what-the-ruckus-is-about/
Girls from the Islamic Religion are also subjected to female circumcision..does that make morally or ethically right....lets see, hmmmm... NO!
I have to agree with Gina -- this is nothing short of abuse! HOW DARE you dole out this sexual expoitation ans abuse in the name of my religion!
You are both sick! I hope there are no children "initiated" in this way. You are the reason that Wiccans are looked down on by many -- they har these stories and believe that we are all perverted like you -- and it just isn't true. I don't know what it is you practice, but it is not the loving, "harm none" religion that I embrace. Shame on you!
The bottom line is, no matter how you try to backpedal and say a doctor should do these procedures (where in the past you've said it should be done ritually, by parents or other adult members of the coven), you are trading one issue for another with no gain.
Using a female's hymen for example, it is a part of human anatomy that is there at birth, and at some point in time will most likely no longer be there. You propose the removal of it at a young age in a cold and frightening environment by an authority figure, instead of in an intimate setting with a loving partner, when the young person has matured enough to make the decision on their own. Which would be more traumatic, do you think? Bottom line... you are splitting hairs saying that a doctor should do this, when there is no over all benefit to the children.
You do this solely in an attempt to justify your advocation of ritualized, incestuous, group, public sex with children. I don't even have to point out where you advocate this, as ajdrew already has done so in his post above, in the link to his blog.
I've been Wiccan for more years than some of these posters on this forum have been alive, and I tell you now, Gaven and Yvonne Frost.. you have no credibility or credence, here or anywhere. You are not being taught to our children, you are not being favored by our community, and when you are gone, you will be remembered as the freakishly weird fringe that advocated child abuse.
Go now into the night, quietly or not, it doesn't matter.
very well said Crone!!!
Are you for real!!! You are suggesting sexual mutialtion in the name of religion?!?! For the Love Of The Gods and Goddess and all the inbetween ... if you are backing up what your suggesting by saying it was in a book, a novel .. fiction for that matter you seriously need some mental help!
I can assure you if my Mother or Grandmother or my husbands Mother or Grandmother suggested to me that my hymen be broken by her in the name of religion and also because it won't hurt as much the first night that my husband and make love .. let us just say that I would surly be second guessing my decision to enter his family as well as the union of our marriage.
Unbelieveable ... I'm still shaking my head in disbelief ... I thought we have evolved as humans but then along come a select few that make me realize some still a long way to go!!!
Instead of studdying some fiction novels perhaps you should begin educating yourselves as to what abuse really is!
How would have liked to have your father or mother go about stealing something so precious as your virginity or mutilating you .. the horror is that sexual abuse happens and that takes a life time to heal from let alone adding in the factor that your father or mother or who ever did so in the name of religion ... I'm appaled that you would suggestest such outright HARM upon some else be it your child or someone elses!!!!!
Strange that in 2007 it takes text from a history book to reveal intent of critics! We observe how humans defend a belief system to the death, and continue to live in denial.
If a person is stupid enough to actually follow instructions from a history book, get charged with child abuse and do time, they need to be implanted with a tracking device if they survive prison and make parole.
You do not get it, yet? No humans were harmed in the writing of history lessons in a history book.
The authors are known to have a great sense of humor, and having personally met and judged them for myself in 2001, October at Samhain celebration, I reject critics false accusations. When is the book burning? Where do we publicly float the witch?
The whole thrust behind the ideas put forth from "The Witches Bible" on has been persistent excuses for sexual contact by these people. From the kissing, to skyclad ritual work, the Frosts have mutated the Goddess' spiritual path into a male oriented parody.
I have heard enough from these people!
Jim Hootsell - The book is an instructional whose sub title is "How to Practice the Oldest Religion".
It is NOT a historical discussion, it is an INSTRUCTIONAL. Evidence can be found in the fact that they state that the material was part of the teachings of their Church and School of Wicca.
Further, the multiple sized dildos of virgin deflowering (I call them torture devices) are described with construction details. Those details include nylon, a modern invention.
You are a member of the Church and School of Wicca (its in your profile), so naturaly you are going to defend the Frosts.
However, stating things which simply are not true in an attempt to mislead people only goes to the reputation of the church's members.
It is not possible for a thinking human being to read that book and think it is a historical reference rather than a modern instruction.
I thus conclude you have not read the book. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. Have you read the thing? Do you agree that sexual initiation of 10 year olds is acceptable? Do you believe fathers should help their daughters with these home made dildos to prepair them for sexual initiation?
Have you read the book?
That passage is an Instruction on how to ready a child for sexual intercourse. Not a grown women,,a child. The point is, there are people did follow those instructions. We are just not sure how many..Don't you get it Jim?
People were hurt..You're the one who is in denial if you believe what you have said here..This not a false accusation I make..for I'm using the Frosts own words as THEY have printed them..
Know this, Gavin and Yvonne Frost: You and your "church" does not in any way shape or form represent my religion.
Your actions are criminal and deserving of the harshest of punishments.
You have no voice which I will hear. Begone from my sight and let me hear no more of you.
WonderGoon
So mote it be..
Wow,
Gavin and Yvonne, that one brought out a entire range of comments.
Here's poor Jim beating his head against the wall trying to get these misled folk to think for themselves....only to be attacked everytime he draws a breath by Drew.
We have Drew and his ilk in one corner spewing venom with each breath. No thought, just spewing. Stop Drew you're getting spit on everyone and please tell your baby pretend pagans about the ramifications of spell casting...Oh wait, I forgot...apparently YOU don't even know the ramifications of spell casting.
In another corner we have someone representing themselves as a Pagan Temple. Would you PLEASE tell me where it is written in Pagan doctorine that sex has to be painful and we must suffer?
Carole...stop spending 2 hours perusing a book and assuming that makes you an expert on said book. Read the whole thing cover to cover then comment on it....Again, partial information used to one's advantage does not make a valid argument. Too little information, too much time seems to be your creed.
Then we have a Crone. Admittedly a Crone's words are generally accepted as a voice of wisdom but you state you "have been Wiccan longer than most of those posting have been alive"...then in all your infinate wisdom why are you allowing Drew to lead you around by the nose? If you're truly Wiccan, stand up and act like one instead of joining ranks with Drew and his pretend pagans.
Christ on a Golfcart lady, the Frosts are still two of the most formidible movers and shakers in the Pagan Community (why do you think Drew is attacking them?) And long after they are gone people will still revile the Good Witches Bible, but they will flock to read the rest of their works.
Regardless of whether Drew or his followers like it or not Gavin and Yvonne Frost have once again posed a valid arguement.
I'd whole lot rather lost my hymen to the snip of a surgeons scissors and had my first sexual experience been one of joy and pleasure; than the screaming, bloody, tear stained experience I had. Hell I almost swore off sex after that horrific experience!
One of our local high priestess stated she lost her's falling on the corner of a toy box when she was eight. She was bruised, battered and could barely walk for almost a month. Having said that, how many here think we should haul all the toy boxes up to Drew's "Real Witches Ball" and burn them? How dare Toy Boxes destroy hymens! Just raise your hands.
Bottom line is a hymen was meant to be broken or removed. Likewise, the frenulum was made to be torn loose. What the Frosts are proposing has nothing to do with molestation. It has everything to do with their removal in a kind, loving, manner at the hands of a trained professional. Thus providing your children with the opportunity to have pleasurable, intimate sex the first time rather than the bloody, painful experience decreed by an angry Jewish God.
Who are you Christians or Pagans? At some point, you're going to have to decide. Why wait until you're falling into that Lake of Fire?
Go back to your Christian roots now and leave Paganism to those of us who can think for ourselves and aren't girdled by Christian values.
Still amazed...
Debra Ravenswood
Debra,
I am no friend to AJ Drew... why does being against the message of the Frosts automatically place me as such in your eyes? Can no one stand against their disturbing message without there being an ulterior motive or hidden agenda?
It sounds to me as if you are the one that needs to take a stand on a principle instead of waddling like a duckling after the Frosts.
As I said before, Debra... don't lose sight of the fact that the Frosts are now saying to use an OBGYN, but they previously were advocating parents or other authority figures to do this in a ritulaized, public, group setting. Their attempts to make it more modern by introducing it as a "surgical procedure" is bogus, and buys them no more credibility than did their instructions on how to build a faux penis.
It is not Christian roots or AJ Drew that compel me to deny the Frosts, Debra. It is the simple problem I have of them being viewed, in any capacity, as being representatives of Wicca.
Do a thousand books that don't advocate the sexual abuse of children clear the record of the one book they published that does? No, because they still think they were and are right.
If you had a painful virginal experience, and wish to project that horror onto your own children, then fine... you pay for their therapy. A surgical procedure to remove their flesh wont' change your memory. Just stop advocating it to the rest of our community as if it is and should be a valid Wiccan practice.
Yes, the Frosts are movers and shakers in the pagan community, but only as an example of what not to be.
Debra, I went through the Marshack book from cover to cover. I supplied quotations from it to substantiate my opinions. The Frosts didn't, because there isn't anything in that book where Alexander Marshack claims that the batons de commandement
were for virgin-nadgering. Their citation of the book is as phony as their fraudulent degrees.
Crone, I think you've misread the Frost instructions slightly. The genital surgery was recommended for babies as soon as possible, and when the ritual rape of the children was done at the coven's gathering, the kids were to be raped privately in another room at one point in their welcoming ceremony.
The long, embarrassed silence is over.
In the history of witchcraft, Gavin and Yvonne Frost will always have an asterisk after their names, noting that they advocated incest, intoxication and ritual rape as a way of initiating a child into the Church of Wicca.
Carol Maltby:
Do you have an X10 hidden camera record of a crime? Then how can one lawfull American accuse another of acts that a district attorney would issue warrants for, and in a few minutes signed by a judge for serving?
Never have I seen, heard or even experienced a vision of any Wiccan groups practicing acts that are described in the Christian bible, and obsessesed on by the obedient sheep. You must be fixated on fictional movies, pulp books, or being enfluenced by the fear mongers.
How can slander of successful persons help our nature loving religion attract those in desperate need of spiritual help, and turned off by main stream religions bickering and back stabbing?
You may be called on to produce evidence if law enforcement finds probable cause. Are you ready?
To the person "representing" themselves as "The Voice Of Reason"-
Are you sure you're Wiccan, Pagan, or witch? The only "pagan doctrine" I adhere to me is the doctrine of nature. Having a hymen is natural, and so is a little bit of pain in life, and that might well include a first time sexual encounter. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the deities.
Then, if you still find the concept hard to grasp, I heartily recommend you take a refresher course in Wicca 101.
By the way, I am not in any "corner". I take no sides. Gavin and Yvonne are welcome to their beliefs-misguided as I personally think they are in this case-and are also entitled to respect.
Any self-styled "crone" or wannabe witch leader had better damn well understand they are speaking entirely for themselves when they express who will or will not be listened to or respected.
As for following a "leader", I follow one and only one leader. I see him every morning when I look in the mirror.
Once again, Crone, well said..Slander???..These are the very printed words of the Frosts themselves used, What is being advocated is the sexual abuse of children, NOT adult women..who can make up their minds and CONSENT to a DR cutting their hyman if they need it,or as a form of ritual if THEY wish it. Just because they are considered the "movers and shakers" of wicca do they speak for me?.. NO!!..Do I want advocates of sexual abuse representing my religion?..NO! Open up you eyes and see the words for what they REALLY stand for..An excuse to abuse children.
Debra Ravenswood – You said the Frosts are: “formidible [sic] movers and shakers in the Pagan Community”. Did you know a gratuitous assertion could be neutralized in debate by an equally gratuitous reply? Uh, no they are not.
Concerning you insistence that I the focus of my distaste for the Frosts is based on their instructions for destroying the hymen, that seems to be what people who support the Frosts would like folk to think. It takes away from the fact that the instruction for destroying all physical signs of virginity were followed by instructions on molesting, intoxicating, and raping as part of the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca. Why is it folk who support the Frosts can not address the issue at hand? Could it be that there is no defense, no justification for it?
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
On the whole “angry Jewish God” bit you included, uh hugh? I know the Frosts are fond of labeling anyone who objects to them as either Christian or Jewish folk who are only pretending to be pagans, but I had honestly thought that such rhetoric did not trickle down to their followers. I guess I stand corrected.
http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0507.html
Please read the quotes from that book and comment on them, rather than continue to state that my offense is based only on this latest post rather than its support of that book, whose instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape children have yet to be apologized for or recanted.
I have not attacked Jim. He posted a comment to a public blog, I replied to that comment stating that I disagree and pointing out why it is that I disagree.
Concerning your comment about “Pagan Temple”, that is the name of his website. Your name is listed here as the “Voice of Reason” because that is the name of your blog. He is adding his opinion, not commenting on pagan doctrine. He is disagreeing with the Frosts, that’s the function of blogs, forums, and other forms of exchange outside of cults where discussion is not encouraged.
Concerning “baby pagans”, I think it is interesting that in searching conversation, you see attack, but when folk disagree with you then we are speaking about “baby pagans”. I am confused why it is that you think folk commenting against child molestation is a spell. Could you explain. Still more confused I am at why you seem to feel that anyone who objects to what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have written are doing my will.
I assure you I am not nearly charismatic enough to rally this many people against the Frosts. Like you, I am big and fat, our society doesn’t tend to follow us fatties (you might have noticed). So we tend to join where we will be accepted rather than lead. Seriously, check out historic charismatic cult leaders. None look like us cause fatties are not valued in our society.
Why is it you demand that anyone who agrees with me is one of my minions? Do you think so highly of yourself that you can not imagine someone disagreeing with you unless they are brainwashed by someone like myself? Crone sounds very much like Dorothy Morrison. Not that I think it is Dorothy Morrison, but she sounds very much like the woman and I can not imagine Dorothy Morrison letting someone else make up her mind.
Someone posted to Carol Maltby – “Do you have an X10 hidden camera record of a crime?”
Carol is obviously talking about the content of a book. Why try to turn this discussion into something it is not. The Frosts have instructed that one should molest, intoxicate, and rape children in the name of Wicca. It is a fact which is evidenced by the book they wrote and their statement that the contents were the teachings of the Church and School of Wicca. That Carol has an issue with and she has been clear. Again we see a Frost supporter refusing to address the issue and attempting to take the conversation elsewhere.
She is not slandering the Frosts, she is discussing the content of their book:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
Pagan Temple – I do not think Crone was dictating how people will react. I think she was predicting how the Frosts are remembered. I think she is right. For the most part, people think they are more of a nutty fringe than anything else. Not the glorious founders of Wicca as the Frosts state time and time again. If there were anyone who is dictating what Wicca is and is not, what Wiccans may think and what they may not, that would be Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0507.html
Carol Maltby – Concerning Crones references, I think she lumped them into one sentence. Yes, the child rape occurs in a separate room followed by the semen burning (now that one is a hoot), but there is also an encouragement to have live sex shows for children. On the age at which the hymen is broken and the foreskin is cut, I think they said at the earliest possible age. Not exactly clear other than the use of the term children. In a later edition of the book, they say they have abandoned the dildo practice because most people coming to Wicca are not, uh intacta. So I think the age at which the Frosts think the physical signs of virginity are destroyed change with the situation and circumstances. Basically, as early as possible seems to mean as soon as you can get your hands on the children. Sometimes that is later in their childhood.
On that asterisk by the name of the Frosts denoting their pedophilic writings, I agree that there will be such a note. However, as Raven Grimassi’s book The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and the works of Chas Clifton has illustrated, it will only remain there when folk refuse to allow silence to continue. Child molestation, incest and the instruction to do so tend to gain their power because we do not address such matters. Hence what people like Gavin and Yvonne Frost have called “the Prime Directive” (yep, they used the term from Startrek).
http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0507.html
From what I understand, the have declared that the Wiccan Rede means one can not speak out against things which they object to. Odd as Doreen Valiente wrote:
"Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever towards it; let nothing stop you or turn you aside."
Ah but of course the Frosts state that they invented Wicca, so who the heck is this Doreen Valiente?
How about scriptural quotes of Odin on High:
"If evil though knowest, then proclaim it to all as evil,
And make no friendship with foes. "
-Havamal
Ah but if we follow the advice of Doreen Valiente and the Charge of the Goddess, we are Christians rather than Wiccans. If we follow the advice of Odin, we are Christians and not Pagans. Wow, that takes balls.
Well, well...lets take a good long look at ourselves now.
At least you've stopped attacking the Frosts. Now if you could all just learn to act like good Pagans and stop yer bitching.
Crone you state... A surgical procedure to remove their flesh wont' change your memory.
True, but it will save them the anguish of what I went through.
You also state: "It sounds to me as if you are the one that needs to take a stand on a principle instead of waddling like a duckling after the Frosts"
I am taking a stand "Crone". I do not feel the removal of the hymen or frenulum by a trained professional is wrong.
Frankly its not any worse than circumcision. But circumcision is decreed in the Holy Bible so we all run out and blindly do that.
Why not do something for our children that's a bit more useful....oh yeah, I forgot. It decreed in the Holy Bible that the Hymen should be intact until after the marriage?
Where did you say you got your training? Sounds a heck of a lot like Christianity to me.
Who do you think you are anyway? If you don't like what the Frost's write, get off their blog, don't buy their books and get on with your life. Being a Crone you should realize how little time you have to waste on a Witch War.
Carol wrote: Their citation of the book is as phony as their fraudulent degrees.
I'd be real careful with that one Carol. First off and formost one does not become an aerospace executive working for NASA without some form of degree.
Once again, as I suggested in another post, Me thinks you do not have all the information required to make such allegations. To put it bluntly Carol,your mouth is writng checks that's going to get your ass in trouble.
And Carole I don't care how intelligent you claim to be, you Did NOt read Marshack's book in two hours.
Pagan Temple states: Having a hymen is natural, and so is a little bit of pain in life, and that might well include a first time sexual encounter.
Yes, so are eyebrows and I'm pleased to say that most women endure the pain of having a portion of them removed.
You also state...As for following a "leader", I follow one and only one leader. I see him every morning when I look in the mirror.
Is that to say you follow yourself and not the Lord and Lady? Isnt that actually a Satanic stance rather than that of a Wiccan? You're much too angry to be a true Wiccan.
So in the event I feel the need to take a Wicca 101 class, I wont' be looking you up for instruction.
Gina, I didn't add you to the previous commentary because you are so manipulated and misguided that I feel addressing you would be a waste of time. But here's somthing to think about.
You state: What is being advocated is the sexual abuse of children,
So having said that the removal of the hymen or releasing of the frenulum is sexual abuse how do you quanitify the tens of thousands of foreskins that are removed from baby boys daily?
How if circumcision (which is done for no reason other than to make it more convenient for the parents to keep the child's penis clean) is legal, why are you people so up in arms about the removal of the hymen? Is it truly because you can't get away from your Christian roots?
Drew, honey....you're a walking disaster. You stated this Witch War to promote a Pagan gathering which now has blown up in your face, you're still hoping the publicity will boost the sale of a few of your sad books, but in the event that falls by the wayside, you can always claim that you have brain damage and don't remember any of this.
What you have done and I applaude you for this is bring out and expose the pseudo, wannabe, pretend, Christo-Pagans for who they truly are.
You may not be a charismatic leader but you did find a subject that incites fear and angst amoungst the Christian community whether they are currently pretending to be pagan or not.
Most of these people who are howling to the moon about the Frosts aren't Wiccan or Pagan...they are truly Christians in Wiccan garb. Read their comments, listen to their arguments. Question as to why they are so up in arms about all this. Because they can't turn loose of their Christian roots.
Again, Drew...if you had never written a book or started a Witch War, I have to applaud you for exposing these people for who they truly are.
I wish you only the best Drew and hope that you do not come out of this with your followers nipping at your backside.
Love and light,
Debra Ravenswood
PS The Voice of Reason is the name of the Blog, it wouldn't hurt most of you to go read it and see just how badly Drew has manipulated you!
Read my words..they advocated sexual abuse as a form of ritual..As for being misguided.. I can see misguided... it is your blatent attempt to derail the issue at hand. Lets deal with that instead of of calling others misguided and manipulated. I have 2 sons and neither one of them is circumsised by My choice. Go back and reread those pages..then come back and talk like a rational adult..
Voice Of Reason-It might come as a big shock to you, but anger is natural as well as pain. Of course, I would never expect you, or anyone, to come to me for leadership.
The point of my remark about my leader being who I see in the mirror, of course, should be apparent. To put it plainly, I would expect you to be the leader you see when you look in the mirror every day. I would expect the same thing of anybody else.
I am very concerned about the idea that people in Wicca and other branches of paganism seem to think they need a Jerry Falwell. The whole point about Wicca is any of us should be constantly striving for self-improvement, to be the best person we can possibly be, and to in fact never stop growing. Any so-called "leader" would be someone who helps us on that path.
It is my belief that most so-called religious "leaders" are concerned primarily with two things-power and control. Frankly, I think way too many people are coming into paganism and Wicca from the vantage point of Christianity, and they are bringing their old Christian mindset with them when they come.
While some of that might be valuable, a good lot of it should be discarded, though I understand this is difficult-but it is a part of the growing process.
I am actually on your side in the sense that I respect the Frosts, and would prefer they were approached and engaged with respect. That, however, does not mean they are above reproach. None of us are. None of us are perfect.
I merely voice disagreement with the Frosts as pertains to this one subject-therefore, to you, I am "angry". That's funny, I thought I addressed them very respectfully. In fact, I respect them enough to tell them when I think they are wrong, in a hopefully respectful way. Adults do that, you know. I am not required to agree with anybody one hundred percent of the time. If that makes me "angry" so be it.
Like I said, anger is natural too. So, unfortnately, is such passive-aggressive behavior as you exhibit with such an accusation.
Finally, your arguments in favor of removal of the hymen just carry no weight. So, if I have a fourteen year old daughter, and she decides to have sex with her boyfriend who has convinced her that he "loves" her, it is going to be painful for her?
Good. I hope it hurts like hell. Frankly, I don't want any child of mine to become a sex-addict, maybe that might well prevent that. I am sure she would get over it in time, and would be all the wiser for it. That's precisely why human females evolved to have a hymen.
Or do you propose that some evil, malignant, satanic force gave it to them to make their sex lives miserable? Who do you suppose did that to them? Loki, perhaps?
Damn, I guess I must be one of these evil secular believers in science you hear so much about, as I assume myself that evolution did it. You know, evolution-that thing some people think of as a part of nature, that we are supposed to revere as manifestations of the goddess and the god?
Like I said, there is always a little pain in life, that is part of the balance of nature. If you don't like it-too bad. Take it up with the deities. I'm sure they would be willing to take the time to help you in your pursuit of wisdom on the subject. They would probably be more curious than anything that it should be necessary for them to do so.
Does it seem odd that some have compared breaking the hymen to plucking eyebrows .. ?!?!?
I'm waiting for the next issue to be .. 'hey why don't we come up some bizzar barbaric way to make child birth less painful for when the time comes .. lets shove watermelons up there .. just to see if that would make child birth less painful' UNBELIEVABLE!!!
When I first began to purchase books to help me out along my path, if I had come across the Frost's book I would have never ever in a million years been convinced that Wicca wasn't evil. Thank Goodness my path brought to me healthy teaching.
I know in my heart what is wrong and what is right .. and I can assure you that if my coven were to come to me and tell me that my son or daughter was to be drugged and raped in order to be initiated into their coven .. I would be calling the proper authorties!!
You can tell yourself what you want to about what is right and what is wrong but fact remains that no matter what you come up with drugging and raping children is so absolutely positivly WRONG!!!!
So Mote It Be
Pagan Temple,
You may be right...I'm not sure what you are either, but I know one thing...You're not Wiccan.
I don't think we need a Jerry Falwell anymore than you do. I think what we need is more respect for our elders and this group of posters seems to have missed that lessson in basic etiquette.
You're right the Frost's have no right imposing their beliefs on anyone....and to date I havent seen them forcing anyone to follow their beliefs. In fact, I've found them to be highly intelligent, gentel folk.
They put the information out in the Good Witches Bible for discussion purposes....go back and read Isaac Bonewits comment. He was physically present and discussed this with the Frost's before it was published.
You people come across like Gavin Frost is going to rise up from the woods in West Virginia, with athame in hand and deflower all female children in the world while Yvonne holds them....give me a break! Isn't this sensationalism at it's best?
Having said that I have to go back to my previous statement, "if you don't like what the Frosts write, don't read it". Most on.
Acutally if more of you had read the entire book, instead of just the excerpts others have provided for you, many of you would see what a stupid argument this truly is.
Gina,
I have read the whole book, cover to cover... have you? Or are you like the rest of the uninformed, unenlightened, masses crying for the execution of another religious leader.
You think you guys would have gotten a clue when you crucified Christ. Apparently not. Didn't get enough during the Burning Times? Well hell, lets just reinact it now.
You people seriously make me sick at my stomach.
Let's talk about rational adult...your posts are little more than highly charged emotional rants. You've got sexual abuse on the brain and can't see that you're being dragged down by someone who encourages Witch Burnings?
Sympathetic or otherwise this is still dangerous business and I wouldn't want to be on Drew's end of this when Karma blows up in everyones faces. Take a good LONG look at yourselves!
Go back, read the entire book, not just the blubs Drew has posted out here for all of you to get up in arms about. He and Carol are famous for this.
I'm not trying to derail any situation. I'm trying to show you where you can find the truth. Get the WHOLE truth before you set judgement.
I think it was Martin Luther King who said, "We have guided missles and misguided men." Make absolutely sure before you pick up that phone and start making allegations, you've got ALL the facts.
Filing false police reports are illegal. So is libel and slander.
Haven't you wondered why your Glory Hound friend Drew hasn't contacted authorities? Hell why not be the ONE who finlly landed the Frost's in prison where you state they belong. Plain and simple Gina, he knows he'll end up in Criminal and Civil Court.
But instead he uses people like you to keep his publicity campaign going. Charge on Gina, when the smoke clears, the Frosts will still be standing and Drew will be hiding under a rock some where claiming amnesia.
Where does that leave you and the rest of his misguided, manipulated followers.
I wish you only the best and pray that at some point the Fundy, Pseudo, Christo-Pagan folk see just exactly what Drew is truly doing to you.
Witch Burning, Pretend Pagans, Witch Wars....shit. Goddess save us from your supposed follwers.
Debra Ravenswood
As I side note, let me recommend another Frost book that would be excellent reading material for those of you who are ready to try and convict the Frosts.
It's called, "Who Will Speak For The Witch" by Gavin and Yvonne Frost
And here is a synopsis from their website.
"This is an historical account of what happens to those who dare to think for themselves. Hopefully the times of persecution have passed for free-thinkers, but we are unsure, even today. Many Church and School of Wicca Witches endure shunning and negativity for their views. Perhaps you can learn the history of the Wiccan movement here and how to treat not only other people with dignity and respect, but their ideas too."
I guess those times aren't in such a distant past, huh?
Love and Light,
Debra Ravenswood
Voice Of Reason-
I think I should clear up a misconception on your part. When I said what I did about pagans looking for a Jerry Falwell, I was not meaning to imply the Frosts wished to set themselves up in such a capacity. I don't know what their intentions are.
What I do know, is there are many Wiccans looking for leaders, and I am afraid there are way too many ready and willing to fill that void. I don't know about you, but I think that's dangerous.
Now, ask yourself this. Why is it that so many people are so upset about this one relatively obscure passage in a book published 35 years ago?
Why should they be so concerned that "others" are going to misjudge them due to this one book? Why should so many people be so insistent that Wiccans have some kind of agreement pertaining to this or any other subject?
Even in this case, you have examples of people crying out for a leader, someone who will deliver the final word, which will then presumably be consdiered "holy writ"-in this case at least in part for the purpose of putting a smiley face on Wicca to the general public.
In my opinion, that is just what the Frosts opinion regarding this subject is-just another opinion. I disagree with it, but I am not by any means engaging in any kind of "witch burning", or anything of the sort.
AJ Drew brought this to my attention, but I am not one of Drew's "followers". We met when he commnented on a previous post of mine in which I actually defended the Frosts, if you must know.
You really need to read more carefully. It's difficult sometimes to read things in the proper context they are intended. In your zeal to defend the Frosts, even you have missed a very important point, as regards to this specific post that Gavin or Yvonne has posted.
Not in one sentence that I read did I read anything to the effect that this proposed removal of the "intacta" was meant to further the cause of a sexual initiation into a Wiccan coven.
All of Gavin and Yvonne's critics in this comments section, has nevertheless attacked them as though this were the case. Funny, I don't remember reading this. All I read was a proposal-call it a theory-that children would be helped if the hymen could be surgically removed, presumably as this would alleviate the pain of a first time sexual encounter. I read nothing about any initiation.
The closest yet I have heard anyone pointing this out in their defense was, ironically, Drew himself, who began his first comment with "what you are not telling folks is"-
Well, maybe they aren't telling folks that because that's not what they mean. Or, maybe they do. Whichever the case, it is still just their opinion-again, a theory.
Again, I will disagree all day long, but I am not engaged in a "witch burning".
As for me not being Wiccan, well technically you are right, in the sense I have never studied under or been initiated into a coven. However, my beliefs and practices are, believe me, Wiccan to the core. I might have a few of my own little idiosyncratic beliefs, but in the overall picture, I am probably no different from the average Wiccan than an Alexandrian might be from another branch.
I believe in the Law Of Three, in the Wiccan Rede, and I adhere to the Sabbats and the Esbats. I don't observe them as often as I should or would like to, but I am solitary, and my situation as of now is not wholly conducive to it.
At the same time, assuming your observation is based on my statement to the effect I am my own leader, yes, I hold to that. I guess that's just one of my little idiosyncracies.
SO who is my leader supposed to be-the Goddess and The God? Fine, but then I have to ask, just who is supposed to speak for the Goddess and The God? Why should I accept anyone as their annointed voice on earth?
Mind you, I'm not talking about a stubborn refusal to listen to good advice, or to seek guidance from those more experienced or who might be able to provide a proper perspective. At the same time, I don't imagine anyone is going to be qualified to be considered the voice of perfection or infallibility, certainly not in all cases.
People seem to want that, though. Or, a lot of them do. Me, I could care less what the Christian community thinks, because frankly, in my opinion most of them are never going to like us, no matter what we say or do. That's just the way people are. As long as Christian religious leaders see us or any different religion as a threat to their bread and butter, they will manipulate their flock to be against us.
Like I said, that's the way they are. I don't want to be like them myself. Do you?
A lot of these people that are so driven to denigrate any person who just expresses and opinion should consider that.
Respectful disagreement is one thing. Open and respectful discussion should be encouraged. Sometimes it might get a little heated. That's fine to a point too, that's human nature as well.
Childish temper tantrums and character assassination is something else again.
First off, Let me make this clear..I do not follow A.J. Drew. What I'm alarmed about are the words that the Frosts,themselves use in their own book supposedly to set standards concerning MY religion, as a parent, I have a real problem with their way of thinking concerning the upbringing of children in the Wiccan church. The Frosts claimed to have founded the Wiccan religion. Strange, I thought G.B. Gardner was the founder? If you look on the bottom of their home page, you will see their own words. I don't want THEIR words of the advocacy of sexual abuse to set the standards of MY religion. If you want to support them that is YOUR choice. I respect your decision even if I don't agree with you.
Gina,
The bottom of their homepage states "Founders and Teachers"....of the Church and School of Wicca. *Sigh*
The Frost's further state they founded the first Wiccan Church and School in the United States to be recognized by the Federal Government as a Church for tax purposes.
I have yet to see anywhere they claim to have "founded" the Wiccan religion. And there's some speculation that Gerald Gardner wasn't the founder either, he just made the first claim.
Again you are either uninformed or only have part of the information.
If you don't agree with the Frost's teaching for yourself or your children, that is entirely up to you. Don't read their books, don't teach it to your children, go back to Sunday School and take your children with you.
But to come on this site half informed, by some blubs you read on someone else's site and start making statements like "I'm going to notify all the authorities I can" is not a smart move on your part.
Stop being manipulated Gina, learn to think for yourself, learn to read all the information, not just parts people present to you, and most of all Gina don't start shouting "justice" until you're sure your on the right side of the law.
I'm sure you're a wonderful parent and person. You've just been led astray just like thousands of others by a stupid publicity stunt.
It's all fun and games until someone gets burned at the stake.
Debra Ravenswoood
Like I said I respect your decision even if I dont agree with you..Be Well.
" ... And here is a synopsis from their website.
"This is an historical account of what happens to those who dare to think for themselves. Hopefully the times of persecution have passed for free-thinkers, but we are unsure, even today. Many Church and School of Wicca Witches endure shunning and negativity for their views. Perhaps you can learn the history of the Wiccan movement here and how to treat not only other people with dignity and respect, but their ideas too."
I guess those times aren't in such a distant past, huh?
Love and Light,
Debra Ravenswood ... "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Their website also states
"And it harm none"
So that means to me that should ones ideas and views and actions come to harm another then that would violate this ultimate universal law ... this is especially import for the single fact that these people are in a great position of power, being that they claim to be ... "
Founders of Wicca as a religion.
First articulators of a Wiccan spiritual philosophy.
Winning of federal recognition from both the IRS and federal appeals courts for the new religion of Wicca.
Authors of twenty-seven books articulating the spiritual beliefs of Wicca.
Teaching Wiccan beliefs to their tens of thousands of students worldwide. "
I also noticed that they claim that they "We do not, however, ascribe to the commonly called Law of Three where what I do comes back to me three times. We have had too much science in our backgrounds as one might think every action has an equal and opposite reaction."
I suspect that this is because of fear of what fate may bring back around to them .. huh ... something to think about ...
also on their web site under the heading of accomplishments--
and I am quoting here."Founders of Wicca as a religion.
First articulators of a Wiccan spiritual philosophy."
The Marshack book can be gone through within two hours to see whether its content agrees or disagrees with the assertions of the Frosts. Neither the Frosts nor their supporters have supplied a single quote from it that substantiates their claims and contradicts the Marshack quotes I've supplied.
At this point, I see no reason to believe any of Gavin Frost's claims about his previous employment that can't be independently verified.
Despite the efforts by some supporters of the Frosts to paint the idea of pre-emptive genital surgery merely as part of a jokey, edgy, thought experiment from long ago, this Frost blog posting reveals thirty years of fixation on controlling children’s genitals and children’s first sexual experiences.
If agreeing that helping your little girl shove a wooden dildo up her coochy is child molestation makes me a sheep, then so be it!
I'd rather be a sheep than a FROSTed flake any day!!!!
Baaaaaa
Bubba – A “Frosted Flake” made me blow coffee out my nose onto my monitor.
Frosted Flakes – You seem to be taking the stance that if one reads the whole book, they will have a different view. What in the rest of the book would lead one to think differently? I have posted the legal warning from the later edition. Perhaps you could quote something and not just rant on about this mystery information.
Perhaps you could discuss why it is that you seem to think these are not valid quotes. They do seem to rather clearly to be an instructional “How to practice the oldest religion” on molesting, intoxicating, and raping children in the name of Wicca as well as how to avoid the legal fall out and potential for child support.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/08/22/wiccan-dead-beat-dads-encouraged/
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
I would very much like to discuss what it is in the rest of the book that you think makes my quotes misleading. Could you address the issue itself much as Carol has? I know I tend to become emotional on the subject, but she seems to be very good at civil discussion. I think we could all learn from her.
So could we discuss what was written, any quotes you would like to provide, how I am wrong in the quotes I provide, and anything else that will help folk decide what the truth is. You know, rather than to continue your rants on how I am big, stupid, and smell bad. Not exactly what Defrosters have said, but might as well be.
Carol – Hey, I didn’t know you were famous.
Debra – Why do you think I care about RWB and my career being harmed by this? I am a blacksmith living in a migrant community. A moral and ethical community which protects and fearfully protects children.
Drew wrote:
Debra – Why do you think I care about RWB and my career being harmed by this? I am a blacksmith living in a migrant community. A moral and ethical community which protects and fearfully protects children.
At least this time you omitted author. I'm sure you don't care about what you've done to the Pagan Community, the RWB or anything else at this juncture.
Everything you've done has blown up in your face and it will continue to do so until the Three Fold Law is through with you.
It's a shame you haven't protected the people who believed your misnomers and half truths. Because you've sure screwed them over.
Me thinks you and Ms. Maltby must be related because you sound a whole lot alike and operate on the same precept of blurbs and half truths. Both of you peruse to find what you want to find and ingnore the rest and have a habit of falling just left of your mark.
I'll be glad to sit down and discuss the Good Witch's Bible with you line by line. I own an original.
Debra Ravenswood
Chaldean - I feel your rage and frankly, my mouth is often even more foul. Odly enough it cleans up when I drink. Anyway, the thing is you are doing exactly what Debra wants. She is using magick to manipulate you. Not the type of magick that involves candles and potions (although I don’t much doubt that) but real magick. She is causing you to change in conformity with her will (or in this case what she thinks her will is). Another way of putting it, is that she is pushing all of your buttons.
Instead of lashing out at her with foul language, why not write to the people at the International Pagan Pride project: http://www.paganpride.org, give them a link to the quotes from the book whose authors are being defended by Debra Ravenswood and note that she is using her credentials here in this blog alongside her praise of Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
Here she announces that she is bringing them to her Pagan Pride event:
http://ozarkppd.arkansaspagans.com/
I am sure you can direct Pagan Pride National to her posts defending the Frosts.
Debra – Actually, I am rather proud of my impact on the Pagan community and my attempts to bring to light the disguesting material Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote and what you and organizations such as Pagan Pride promote. I very much want a rift in the pagan community, a very large one. That way, folk such as those who promote the Frosts and those who believe they are disguesting perverts can keep a safe distance. In short, I want people like this to be clearly identified much the way the larger community is happy to have sexual predator lists and laws to keep such folk clearly identified.
The fact remains, Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote a book which clearly calls for the sexual initiation of children. They provided legal advice on how to do it while minimizing the legal threat and how to avoid paying child support should they become pregnant. If I have lied about a thing, I am sure they would sue me. After all, I have provided them my mailing address here in this blog and as I will be making this information available to national news source this October, well their time is running out to make a formal legal complaint before that happens.
Concerning an original Good Witches Bible, the original was not called A Good Witches Bible. I have a copy right in front of me as well. Lets talk.
What do you think about the sexual initiation of children called for in, I think, chapter 4. Note, you said you were going to discuss the original, the 1972 version. Please do tell.
ajdrew
You're right. I should have more composure. I shouldn't let her get to me. Gavin and Yvonne frost use black magick and were very well known for it. So they will be getting their karma. Good luck in October. I'll do my best to support in any ways possible.
personally, i think something is very wrong with this whole situation.
don't get me wrong, playing with kiddies private parts is heinous and should not EVER happen, but there is something else that is happening that seems to have been missed. these people (the frost's and supporters) are saying that they are qualified to tell every parent how to raise every child in the world. or at least every wiccan parent and child. this is absurd. every child is a person and every person is different and needs to learn in their own way. what about the "child's" rights as an individual to determine what is done to their body? i haven't read anything about that in this whole blog. this idea that very young children need to have all this sex stuff forced on them is ridiculous. children need to be taught that sex is for grownups who have matured emotionally and physically enough to withstand the various strains one endures during the act. but most of all a mother should teach her daughter and a father his son when they are ready. a blanket procedure of "do this at this age and this other thing at this time" cannot possibly apply to all situations. a parent should protect their child from being exposed to too much sex too early, and as they approach spiritual, physical and LEGAL maturity, then the parent steps in and prepares their child ,in the best way for their child, to make the decisions that are best for them when they become adults. putting objects in a female's vagina is sex - a child cannot consent to sex - sex without consent is rape - it is unlawful to commit rape. it is unlawful to withhold food from a child under your care. it is unlawful to feed alcohol to a child under any circumstance. these activities are unlawful for a reason - they damage children. it is the duty of any parent to protect their children from damage, not commit damaging act upon their children themselves as described by the frost's.
I'm a friend of chaldean and i have one main word describing the acts Yvonne and Gavin Frost condone:disgusting.
my views have nothing to do with religion, they are merely common sense. anyone who condones the illegal intoxication and manipulation of a child is to me no more than a common rapist. You have no right to do this to anyone...especially a child.
You are basically drugging children to have your way with them almost...behind the guise of calling yourself Pagan. It seems to me that alot of people will try to justify their actions with religion. How increadably ignorant and self righteous. The Frosts to me exemplify this human blunder to a degree thats almost unforgivable.
I myself as a Pagan am horrified anyone would be so simple as to believe copulation or molestation of a child is somehow justified or even remotely sacred. It to me is a sad attempt at being the polar oppostite extreme of what standard religion teaches. Almost a type of "look-at-us-we're-so-different" fit.
Lastly I have one more thing to say. Just because someone has a Ph.d does not automatically make them experts in everything. To believe so is foolishness and a sign of an easily lead person who hasn't the capability to think for themselves.
To all those who have common sense and a mind of their own, Blessed Be.
A hymen is never "intact". In fact it shouldn't be. Of course hymens vary in thickness, size of opening, etc - but there should always be an opening.
It is commonplace for a doctor to make sure an infant female has an open hymen. If the opening does not occur a physician may be employed to fix this before school age. Young girls begin to menstruate as early as 9 years old. Blood needs to be able to pass.
So, to say that the hymen is closed before first intercourse is completely false and rather ignorant.
Let's face it. In this day and age young girls use tampons, masturbate, get pelvic exams, etc. The hymen is rather irrelevant. An empowered, modern woman would hopefully be raised aware or her anatomy and be ready for the happenings of first intercourse. I didn't bleed a bit and over half of the young female population won't either.
Times have changed. I would say it's uncommon to be given a prudish upbringing. Sex education and a new generation of parents ready to give their kids "the talk" has increased awareness and empowered young females about their bodies. There is still some work to do but surgically removing hymens is not the answer. In fact, it's down right unnatural.
Of course I speak from an American point of view. Some parts of the rest of the world have much more work to do before women can be sexually liberated.
And I'm sorry - did you say "acceptable guidelines"? What does that mean exactly? Should all Pagans subscribe to the beliefs that would be in these "guidelines"?
I would have to say that I would be completely against any practice like this for my daughter. My opinion is that the only guideline Pagans need is nature. The tearing, rupturing, etc. of the hymen is part of a natural process.
Birth is a bloody process too. Should we find some way to make that more pleasurable? Some women don't lose their hymens completely until they give birth. Should we do something about that too. Come on now.
Hum, that is interesting. I wouldn't have a clue what to do with a virgin. Never had one, don't want one. But I think that if a man is gentle with a virgin the experience should go well for her.
Well, I don't want sex with anyone but my spiritual soul mate, but maybe she is dead and I just have to accept that fact.
And much of the world is still stupid.
Okay, I've read all the comments. I honestly don't know any of you. I've seen AJ Drew's book, The Wiccan Bible, but I've never so much as picked it up.
I can hang with the idea of hymen and frenulum removal *if done by a doctor*, though I don't neccessarily agree with it.
Voice of Reason, I've been searching everywhere online and asking other pagans, but I can't seem to get a read on the rest of the ritual description. What about the fact that the child is given the choice of whether or not to use contraception? I don't know any 9-year-olds who are capable of caring for another human being in the manner a parent needs to care for their child, but I know plenty of 9-year-olds who have passed menarche.
What about these children having sex with adult sponsors? I understand this is supposed to foster "good feelings" about sex because it's being enacted with a trusted adult and in a comfortable environment, but why? Why not just puncture the child's hymen and let the child be? Let the child have their first sexual experience with the person of their choice?
Is there something I'm missing about The Good Witch's Bible? Jim Hootsell and Voice or Reason, you're both acting as if these passages pertaining to the sexual initiation of children aren't to be taken seriously? Why are they in a book?
Honestly, I haven't yet made up my mind about this whole situation. I'm trying to research and come to a correct and fair conclusion, but all I keep hearing about is the hymen and the frenulum. What about the rest of it??
Well, excuse me while I go vomit at length.
I'd perfer to chose when and to whom I lost my hymen. I still have it at 18. Not because I'm Christian and waiting until marriage, but because I haven't found anyone I want to have sex with. And I know it will hurt and possibly be bloody, but I can accept that. Its symbolically beautiful in its own way. Women have fought for how long to have control over our bodies? I want to chose my body's fate, not have it yanked from me as a child. To me, my hymen physical I was born with, I don't want anyone messing with my body without my matured permission! I didn't even know what a hymen was when I was 10, lest understood it! And no, I wasn't sheltered.
While there are some things about the Frosts that have intrigued me for years, I could never take them too serious. I was born in 1972 and didn't experience the mass disconnect from society of the 60s and 70s. SOme may call those people "wierd" but that is a silly word to use when you dont understand something or choose to remain ignorant.
Seems like the guy from "pagan temple" has the fair balance of response on this blog. Just because something was practiced long ago doesnt make it right. There is absolutely nothing beneficial to forcing a child into sexual initiation. I am actually -in between- when it comes to early teen sex, as there are cases when its alright. But the idea on this blog is extreme. It makes Wicca no better than Christianity.
I know Christianity and churches very well and its a "racket" as my dad would say. But Wicca is one as well. Life without any practice that could be deemed "religious" is what we're shooting for. The reason is because it is apparent that we are all truly equal the day we are born. Then, we are slowly corrupted by polarization of biased ideas. Eliminate that and you're back to what mother earth intended anyway.
Repecting where we come from does not lie in history. It lies in the past, present, and the future because earth and nature stays the same, always. Its the answer for all living things. Any other idea is the result of some radical influence that wasn't intended to be. When one person gains something, another person loses something. The mirror should never have been invented.
What the Frosts are teaching about *initiation* in Wicca, is not Wiccan. PERIOD. Wicca carries very little ANCIENT customs. The worship of a Goddess is about the MOST of the antiquities you find in Wicca. Sex is not and never has been a *stipulation* for intiation. EVER. Where this *sexual initiation* crap came from was Gavin Frosts' research on ancient customs but it has nothing to do with WICCA at all. Wicca did not come about until the late 40's , early 50's and there was NOTHING AT ALL about *sex magic* involved in the iniation process of any Wiccan Coven from that moment on. The only thing where *sex* could even be remotely experienced in Wicca, is in the GREAT RITE. This is done symbolically today. It is not done in a Coven for intiation and especially with CHILDREN. This is the UNITED STATES. This is not Italy, it is not Pakistan .. and it is NOT ANCIENT TIMES. If a Coven wants to work skyclad (naked), it is usually done with CONSENTING ADULTS in a CLOSED COVEN , no one under the age of 18, PARENTS OR NO PARENTS. Even working skyclad is not done nearly as much as it use to be. What I WANT TO KNOW .. is where did GAVIN learn this? Who taught YOU, Gavin? Where are YOUR credentials ?? POST THEM. And tell everyone who taught YOU. We want to know.
Rain Dove / Priestess (Georgia)
It is a popular MYTH that the hymen needs to be "broken" in order to have vaginal intercourse. The hymen is elastic, it stretches when the vagina is sufficiently lubricated. Any bleeding during intercourse is due to vaginal tearing, caused by insufficient lubrication. When a woman is scared or frightened, she will be unable to relax her vaginal muscles, and this is why many women have painful first experiences of intercourse. The male foreskin does not require any surgical alteration either, and is perfectly functional just the way Nature created it. Removal of the foreskin actually decreases lubrication of the penis, causing further discomfort during intercourse for both partners. When both partners are fully intact, relaxed, aroused, and patient, sex is an enjoyable and pain-free experience.
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