A common bond binds fanatical reformers together.
* St. Augustine was a debauched ladies' man, almost dead from a series of social diseases. After his mother nursed him back to health, he found Jesus and became one of the most fanatical Christian reformers and woman-haters ever to have lived.
* Theodosia of Constantinople was a lady of the night and an exotic dancer when the Emperor fell for her. When she became Empress, she turned against people of her own class and convinced the Emperor to gather them together in the hippodrome. There they were all slaughtered. Apocryphally, she did not stop there: Every house of ill repute was burnt to the ground with its inhabitants closed inside.
* In recent times we have seen how fanatical fundamentalist Christian leaders have committed sins heinous in the eyes of their congregations--while preaching hellfire and damnation on parishioners who might themselgves stray onto those primorse-strewn pathways.
It seems that fanatical reformers are all drawn from the ranks of those who, before their conversion, were into the behaviors they later so vigorously suppressed or attacked.
* Drew, we would like to bring to your attention the widespread rumors about your daughter getting a restraining order against you. Can you please put these rumors to rest?
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145 comments:
Is that a closet door i hear opening. and hmm is that a skeleton falling out..?
Also pertaining to Augustine-he purposely misrepresented the worship of the god Dionysius.
According to him, worshippers would pray to Dionysius for wine. Actually, the truth was that one way in which the god's followers prayed to Dionysius was THROUGH the drinking of wine.
Augustine was a learned man and should have known better, but he purposely misrepresented the cult of Dionysius, though I don't know what the exact reasoning of this would have been. To make the god's followers look as though they were nothing but alcoholics wanting to stay drunk, I am guessing.
Yet, it follows the same pattern that you pointed out, that those who are radical reformers will twist the truth and subvert it in order to wage their policy agendas, whatever those might be.
Seems he would rather talk about watermelons in the other blog section than adress this .So Aj why did your daughter get a restraining order against you..?
Wow, diversion tactic anyone.
So, do you mean the rumor that you just started here? I will assure everyone that our only daughter (who is 3 by the way) does not have a restraining order against her father, and as A.J. has no other daughters, that is that.
I take it your lawyer told you, that because of A.J.'s wording in his blog that you have no case, so now you are trying to divert the attention away from yourselves as well as start some nasty rumours. Nice try, it's exactly what one would expect from the likes of you.
Talk about pole-vaulting the issue, Before starting false rumors get your facts straight.
Pagan Temple, your questions have been delivered and are being answered as I type. The answers are quite long, and they will be emailing them directly to you so they don't get picked apart in here by the riff raff.
Also I showed them your blog. They were quite taken by your knowledge and the ability to articulate thoughts in meaningful ways.
Shame we can't have more INTELLIGENT conversation in here.
Aimee,
Sit tight honey, the wheels of justice turn slowly. But rest assured, they have a set of handcuffs for you too.
Which brings me to the next subject. Is anyone other than me aware that GWB has already been read by a Federal Judge and found to be a religious text?
The Federal precept is, they don't care what you write, they don't care what you think, and with a few exceptions, they don't care what you say.
What they do care about is ACTIONS. When you start committing illegal acts then they care a whole bunch.
Slander and terroristic threatening are criminal acts they care very, very much about.
But in any event, the Lord and Lady have a way of showing the true scoundrels for whom they are.
We'll see who's found guilty of criminal action when this is all over. And the nice part is all the Frosts and the others who have been maligned have to do is sit patiently and wait.
Blessed be the Lord and the Lady,
Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
September 15, 2007
Fayetteville, AR
Be there or be uninformed.
Deb – Restraining orders? Terroristic Threats? Pagan Nations? Prison recruitment’s? Instead of making insinuations, why not state as a fact that my daughter has a restraining order against me. Why not state as a fact that I have been making terroristic threats. Not in the form of a question. Not in reference to a rumor. Why not state as a fact what you report to know?
As far as I know, I have only one daughter. Sure, I was in the military and had some rather wild times back in the day, but nobody ever told me about another one. I asked my daughter about this rumor, she said no. I don’t think she knows what a restraining order is. So I explained and she said no. I asked what about my farts and she still said no.
It’s like this. I am one of them damned Yankees who married in to a Hillbilly family. I don’t understand all of their rules, but there is one I am fairly sure of. If my brother in law thought I had molested or otherwise intentionally hurt his niece, I am sure the hogs would eat well that night. This is how I like things. There is right, there is wrong, and then there is very wrong. If you do very wrong, well you become bacon.
Gavin - So, with a wee bit of that rebel yell (which I am learning from the Hillbilly side of my wife’s family) – Hell no ain’t no restraining order from one of my heatherns (wife gave me that word). Yee Haw!
Everyone else – I am sorry, I am just having trouble taking any of this blog seriously anymore. What’s next, he hears I have an erectly dysfunction?
A.J. Drew
http://PaganNation.com
"But rest assured, they have a set of handcuffs for you too."
Woo hoo! Santa did get my letter.
Deb-
Thanks very much again.
Gavin and Yvonne-
I look forward to receiving your e-mail. I only hope it doesn't get routed to my spam folder,especially since I'm in the habit of deleting the spam folder on my Yahoo account after it builds up so much without looking at it.
But, I'll make sure and check it the next few days, just in case it does go there. That would be about my luck these days.
Glad you enjoy my blog. I would be happy to post your answers there, with your permission of course. Let me know if it's okay and I will do so. Otherwise, if you say not to-or if you say nothing at all-then of course I won't.
I will be very interested, and very much looking forward, to reading what you have to say on those topics.
Drew
I don't know anything about you or a restraining order. Do you have one? Actually I'm more interested in the drug conviction I found under your name??? But I'm guessing it's probably another person with the same name as you. Far be it from me to make unsubstantiated allegations, that's your department.
Just remember Drew, you're the one who slandered and harrassed the Arkansas Pagan Pride events. You're the one who contacted the North Little Rock Police Department and advised them the PPD were spreading pedophilic materials in Arkansas Parks.
I guess the Police Department is lying about that and you're totally innocent of these crimes. The PD is very cooperative when it comes to investigating criminal actions such as those perpetuated by you and your wife.
Incidentally I sat in a television station today with Gavin and Yvonne while a very neutral reporter asked them pointed questions based on what you claim to be the "quotes" from Good Witches Bible. Gavin read the actual quotes from the GWB while we compared them to those that you claim are copied directly from the book, man there is a HUGE difference between what you write and what is actually in the book?
And you know what Drew, it's now on video, at a television station. Soon it will be in the court room and then on the website....I guess the whole world will see what a baboon you really are. I hope they aren't upset that you've led them around by the nose with your lies and deceptions.
Frankly my attorney is loving every minute of this.
Debra Ravenswood
Debra Ravenswood
Do you have a statement to make about this?
Begin statement
http://www.paganpride.org/lc/press/pr5.htm
A clarification on PPD, Inc's event policies
To whom it may concern:
Recently emails for Pagan Pride's Local Coordinators were harvested from Pagan Pride's website (http://www.paganpride.org) and an email was sent involving Pagan Pride's supposed support for the works and presence of Gavin and Yvonne Frost -- specifically referring to the Frosts' appearance at a Pagan Pride Day event in Fayetteville, Arkansas, USA.
Pagan Pride, Inc wishes to clarify the following:
1) The event in Fayetteville is not an official PPP, Inc-sponsored event. PPP, Inc claims no trademark over the term 'Pagan Pride Day'; therefore events may exist that are not part of the Pagan Pride Project. This is one of those independent events. It has no formal connection with the Pagan Pride Project, Incorporated.
2) The Pagan Pride Project, Inc, has no official stance on banning individual speakers or presenters on a national or international basis save those documented in our Event Policies ( http://www.paganpride.org/do/eventpolicies.html) and our Code of Ethical Conduct (http://www.paganpride.org/do/ethics.html). As a volunteer-driven organization, much of our decision-making is made at the local level, and we trust our volunteers to select speakers, presenters, and events that are appropriate for a family-friendly, politically neutral, and all-inclusive public event.
3) Effective immediately, the Pagan Pride Project specifically prohibits the harvesting of volunteer and Local Coordinator emails from our website for the purposes of mass spam emailing. (Yes, we realize there isn't much we can do if people do this, but we can at least state our official prohibition of the practice).
On a personal note, I accept and understand that the Frosts are at the least controversial figures based on some of their older writings, and at the most many Pagans find them to be unacceptable representatives of the community in any capacity. In the long run, I trust my Local Coordinators to have common sense about such things; I already know they have passion, enthusiasm, and an unflinching desire to make the world a better place for everyone, Pagans and non-Pagans alike.
If anyone has any questions, I encourage them to contact me directly.
Dagonet Dewr
Executive Director, Pagan Pride Project
***********************
End of statement.
--------------------------
"Which brings me to the next subject. Is anyone other than me aware that GWB has already been read by a Federal Judge and found to be a religious text?"
Is there a document stating this filed with the court system? If so where is it? Proof is needed when making statments such as this.
-------------------------
I would like to know more on this "terrorist" threat accusation. Is this real? Is there proof?
------------------------
"Actually I'm more interested in the drug conviction I found under your name???"
Again is this just an accusation or is there some proof you can provide?
Just wanting facts Ma'am.
Rhiannon,
You know, I could do the double talk you and the Drew's manage to churn out daily, but why should I? I have nothing to hide and no alternative agendas. Therefore, I shall respond to your remarks within the boundries our attorneys and the police have set upon us.
I'm not sure what you're asking me to make as "statement" on regarding Dagonet's statement. He is correct in everything he states. We am NOT affiliated with PPP, Inc as our website clearly states (in highlighted YELLOW). Why? Because Rhiannon, we were holding PPD's decades before PPP,Inc was ever thought of. We felt there was no justification in joining PPP, Inc. as we already met the guidelines they set forth and already had our own 501(c)(3).
There is no copyright on the name "Pagan Pride Day" and we are organized under a nonprofit, 501(c)(3), all of this information is also on our website at http://ozarkppd.arkansaspagans.com
So was this a questions or just another lame attmept to say I'm not an "authenitic" PPD. Because if you are, you're sadly mistaken. There are far more unaffiliated PPDs in the US than there are affiliated.
Regarding your next demand for "proof" and I answer these because I really feel the world needs to know how badly you've been misled and how uninformed you are.
I've mentioned on this blog several times that the Frosts fought and won a case with the Federal Appeals Court. You'd think someone whould have done some research on this, but apparently you're more interested in continuing a Witch War than knowing the truth.
The outcome of this court case was the recognition of Wicca as a religion by the Federal Government.
But, during those proceedings, the Frost's were called upon by the Courts to prove that there was a valid concept in what they called a religion.
In reply to this the Frosts produced the only body of work they had....The Witch's Bible as their proof of religious proceedure. I believe the Judge who reviewed the materials name was Barrett or Barnett.
If you have a paralegal or an attorney in your rear pocket they can search case.net or lexis and pull up the document numbers as they are a matter of public record.
Because of the age of this case and the fact that digital media was not available back then, you will have to contact the Federal Court of Appeals for copies of the documents as they are stored on microfilm.
The "Terroristic Threat Accusation" is also a matter of public record. As I told you in previous blogs because of the Drew's emails to the North Little Rock Police Department on September 6, 2007 and their statement that people under the guise of Pagans holding a Pagan Pride Event were handing out pedophilic intructional in Arkansas Parks, the police and a group of Arkansas attorneys have begun garnering information from these blogs.
To find your "proof" all you have to do is go back and read the contents of many of AJ Drew's blogs. You can't threaten to do bodily harm to people, I don't care how sick you are, sooner or later it's going to land your butt in trouble.
I have been advised by my attorney not to devulge the specifics of the comments that have been gleened. But I can say there are several on his commentary in this blog over the past few months.
AJ Drew states that he has been very careful not to threaten anyone, but in many of his tirades you will find him stating his willingness to strike and/or hit certain individuals. In the State of Arkansas this constitutes Terroristic Threatening, a felony.
And lastly the "Drug Conviction". For those of you who do not know this, legal professionals can log into specific sites and search criminal, civil and family cases.
I was emailed a copy of a criminal case involving an individual with the same name as Drew. (Which I will not use here, because whether you know it or not, to do so without their approval is a direct "Terms of Service" violation. Something, Rhiannon I believe Shadowhawk could file a complaint against you for.
But all that aside, back to Drew...I replied to the sender of the email and told them I thought the date of birth is wrong and it is probably some who lives in the same general vacinity of Drew, with the same name...like a distant cousin or something. I gave Drew the benefit of a doubt, something he has not given anyone else and was asking him to confirm that my assessment of the document was correct.
Now use your computer for something other than the propogation of a Witch War and go search for the truth.
Love and light.
Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
Fayetteville, AR
Debra
"Something, Rhiannon I believe Shadowhawk could file a complaint against you for."
Sorry but no he can not do so. Everything that I posted here he put out for public consumption. The web sites are easily found with his information on it. I did not post anything that was not on any of those sites. Even police records, as you say, are for public consumption.
"In reply to this the Frosts produced the only body of work they had....The Witch's Bible as their proof of religious procedure. I believe the Judge who reviewed the materials name was Barrett or Barnett."
Umm not good enough. First name and district is needed.
Though I could search but since you claim this to be so the burden of proof is on you.
Now if you wish to talk about threats....You do realize that making false statements is actionable.
Also the threats that Shadowhawk made to give Drew more brain damage is also actionable. BUT burning someone in effigy is not actionable (even though no one is doing so and that is just someone who decided to make a wild fire out of nothing, but it has helped to spread the truth about the book. Thank you to everyone who has done this)
“The "Terroristic Threat Accusation" is also a matter of public record. As I told you in previous blogs because of the Drew's emails to the North Little Rock Police Department on September 6, 2007 and their statement that people under the guise of Pagans holding a Pagan Pride Event were handing out pedophilic instructional in Arkansas Parks, the police and a group of Arkansas attorneys have begun garnering information from these blogs.”
Those emails to the police are not up as public record.
You have also stated that you are not allowed to talk about certain things.
So which is it Debra? You can or you cannot talk about this?
Any concern citizen is required by law to bring to the attention of the local police if they feel something illegal/crime is being committed. It is also required of said police to investigate the validity of said inquiry. The police get hundreds of these a day. Some are real some are not. They are not terrorist threats, but concern citizens.
“There is no copyright on the name "Pagan Pride Day" and we are organized under a nonprofit, 501(c)(3), all of this information is also on our website at http://ozarkppd.arkansaspagans.com”
Interesting change to the web site, thank you for clearing that up.
As I have said in the past I welcome any real proof that will contradict anything that I have read. As yet I am only seeing smoke and a lot of talk.
Oh and I do use my computer and library and much more for research. But I feel it is polite to let those who make “certain” statements to clarify first.
the voice of reason said: "I was emailed a copy of a criminal case involving an individual with the same name as Drew. (Which I will not use here, because whether you know it or not, to do so without their approval is a direct "Terms of Service" violation. Something, Rhiannon I believe Shadowhawk could file a complaint against you for."
rhiannon said: "Sorry but no he can not do so. Everything that I posted here he put out for public consumption."
On the other hand Debra, Aimee Drew may have a complaint against you.
What was that about stones & glass houses?
Rhiannon,
Even though items may be for "public consumption" to use any name not use on the email or blog, address, phone numbers and such on these site are TOS violations...you really should yap less and read more.
Are you really so lazy you won't even make an attempt to look for these documents? Holy shit, I'd have been out there typing my fingers off and losing sleep locating them!
It is obvious that I could hand deliver the documents to you and you'd still refute them. Therefore if you want the truth go seek it yourself instead of sitting here like some binary swine gobbling up everything the Drews toss you.
The only "new" addition to the website was to move the announcement to the front page from the "About Us" page. Again, do Rhiannon, do some research.
The emails to the police are not yet public record because of the pending legal action.
Also the emails were only the catalyst that began the police investigation of the blogs the actual threats are in the blogs, not the emails.
You clearly have some misconceptions that you hold dearly. Which is why I for one refuse to waste any more of my time with you regarding this. You can't help someone who does not want to be helped.
Bubba,
In regard to glass houses, last time I looked I still lived in the United States of America and the Drews had not been appointed as Judge and Jury in regard to anything.
After the Drews first foray into sticking their noses where the didn't belong they were advised to deal with the issues of Ohio and stay out of the affairs of Arkansas Witches, they didn't.
Aimee is as guilty of this as her husband, if not more so. She's the one who is supposed to have all of her mental facilities. Her email address and name appears on more than one email and blog, including this one.
If she feels she has a TOS violation or legal action against me or anyone else in our state, my suggestion is that she get off her duff and contact the proper authorities.
Now as I stated before, I am bound to a degree by our attorneys and law enforcement officials in what I can and can not say.
As such, those of you who continue to hang at the feet of the Drews and refuse to do your homework, I've said all I can and will say regarding these matters.
This may be the high point of your life. But we've got way too many positive things happening here in Arkansas to let the Drews personal vendetta keep us bogged down. We're content to let the legal system deal with the Drews while we go about our business.
If you seek the truth, you will find the truth. If you sit on your butt, you will only receive the scraps others toss to you. As I've stated hundreds of times in here, get up and think for yourselves.
Abundant Blessings to everyone,
Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
§ 2706. Terroristic threats.
(a) Offense defined. A person commits the crime of terroristic threats if the person communicates, either directly or indirectly, a threat to:
commit any crime of violence with intent to terrorize another;
cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation; or
otherwise cause serious public inconvenience, or cause terror or serious public inconvenience with reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience.
Please Debra do tell how A.J.'s phone calls and letters to the police did any of these things.
You have nothing. Nothing A.J. said to anyone was untrue. He accused Pagan Pride of nothing, only warned them that the Frosts would be speaking, and according to your website selling their books, one of which, A.J. and many many others feel contains illegal instruction on how to rape children. The day that warning the police about possible illegal activity becomes an illegal act, we may as well just turn the country over to the criminals. In short, your event was not threatened, nor was anyone in attendance. The only threat was that if someone was doing something illegal they may be arrested, and I believe that is a threat that is implied in every action of anyone's life. If you're doing something illegal you may be arrested.
Another thing which gives away the fact that this is nothing but a steaming pile of excrement is you keep referring to your lawyers, if anyone believed anything illegal had been done, it would not involve private attornies. That's not the way the justice system works, a prosecutor would have already investigated the case and issued a warrant, see that's who handles criminal cases, not private attornies.
So, go spew your bullshit to people as stupid as you, they might actually believe you.
This is the last response on any matter concerning these latest diversion tactics that Debra and the Frosts are attempting, that you will receive from either A.J. or myself. I am returning to the more important matter of raising my children, and A.J. will be returning to the more important matter of raising awareness.
I have a question, I would appreciate someone answering it.
Is it legal to purchase "The Good Witches Bible"?
What I mean is, can it be legally purchased either in a store, or over the Internet, for example through Amazon or EBay?
Yes its legal there are copies being offered for sale as we speak. And Aimee you are so fullof shit, Private attornies handle civil matters, and criminal attornies handle criminal cases, so here comes the kicker,once the prosecutor has enough evidence to substantiate probable cause he can issue a warrant. Isnt that neat, and because it hasnt happened yet, doesnt mean it wont happen, and your not raising awareness , your dividing the pagan community over a stupid vendetta
Pagan Temple,
Yes, currently it is legal, as it has not been challenged yet. That is what A.J. is trying to accomplish by reporting the book to authorities. The steps necessary for causing it to be illegal are being followed, first, a local court (somewhere it is being sold) will have to examine it to determine if they feel it is illegal to sell in their jurisdiction, if this happens, then I'm sure the Frosts would appeal to a higher court, most likely in whatever state that occurs in, if they then determine it to be illegal then the Frosts would have the option to appeal to most likely a federal court. But, the process has to start somewhere. If a crime is never reported then it can never be prosecuted, so now the concentration is on reporting what A.J. and many others believe is a crime, when it is possible that it will be occuring.
I'm sure you are wondering why not just head straight to federal level? Because who do you think is going to be more likely to investigate, an overly swamped federal system, or a small police department who knows the name of most of the children in their town?
http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Witchs-Bible-1972-2nd-HCDJ-SIGNED-by-Both-Authors_W0QQitemZ270080327834QQihZ017QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Heres a copy being sold for 449.00. And there is another on ebay for 160.Until such a time as SOME STATE court as Aimee calls it takes on determining if its ilegal .IT WILL continue to sell and rightly so.And i hope it goes to the federallevel for the simple fact that once its done there its done. If the feds say it can be sold then youll' just have to deal with it
Dettmer Vs. Landon
The case was Dettmer v. Landon. A 29 year old inmate incarcerated at the Powhatan Correctional Center in State Farm, Virginia claimed that his First Amendment right to the free exercise of his religion, the Church of Wicca, was violated by prison officials who refused to give him any access to his religion's worship materials. Prison officials said that the worship materials that Dettmer seeked--candles; a statue; a white robe; incens; and either sulfur, sea salt, or uniodized salt--would be hazardous to prison security. The prison officials also claimed that the Church of Wicca is not a religion entitled to First Amendment protection.
During the time from 1983-1985, Dettmer repeatedly sought permission to obtain the certain items (stated above), and the prison officials, understandbly sensitive to potential security problems, denied each request, asserting that the items posed a threat to the security of the intstitution. For example, the prison officials stated that the incense could be used to mask the odor of drugs, a statue could be used as a weapon, sulfur could be used to make gunpowder, and a hooded robe could be used to hide a prisoner's face in an escape attempt.
Recognizing that the prison officials had legitimate security concerns with several of the items, Dettmer consulted his religious leaders and offered to substitute sea salt or uniodized salt for the sulfur, to remove the hood from the robe, and to use a plastic statue rather than a wooden or ceramic one. (If you notice, Dettmer didn't fight for the right to have an athame because he realized that such an item could not be kept within a prison facility.) However, despite Dettmer's efforts to provide a workable solution, and even though officials never questioned the sincerity of Dettmer's beliefs, the prison still denied Dettmer's access to the items. At the same time, prisoners worshipping more conventional religions such as Catholicism and Hinduism were given access to candles, incense, and crosses, and all prisoners were routinely given access to bathrobes and boxing robes.
Throughout this trial, the Court had to determine whether the Church of Wicca is a religion for purposes of the First Amendment. Because religion is so highly personal and private, dealing with spiritual rather than temporal matters, courts have traditionally been reluctant to examine and pass judgment upon these beliefs. However, when confronted with a dispute between religious conviction and the needs of the state, courts have a duty to make at least some inquiry into the nature of the faith to ensure that purely secular beliefs and practices are not accorded the special protection afforded by the First Amendment. The courts have ruled though that the belief in a religion is different from the actions of a religion. (Ex. If a religion believed in killing a person at least one time during your life, obviously, the courts are not going to allow this. You may believe in it, but acting is different from believing.)
A decision was then reached: "Members of the Church of Wicca sincerely adhere to a fairly complex set of doctrines relating to the spiritual aspect of their lives, and in doing so they have 'ulitmate concerns' in much the same way as followers of more accepted religions. Their ceremonies and leadership structure, their rather elaborate set of articulated doctrine, their belief in the concept of another world, and their broad concern for improving the quality of life for others gives them at least some facial similarity to other more widely recognized religions. While there are certainly aspects of Wiccan philosophy that may strike most people as strange or incomprehensible, the mere fact that a belief may be unusual does not strip it of constitutional protection. Accordingly, the Court concludes that the Church of Wicca, of which the plaintiff is a sincere follower, is a religion for the purpose of the free exercise clause."
The second part of the decision, though not actually dealing with the foundation of Wicca legally, is now discussed here. This decision was made in response to whether Dettmer should have the items at anytime that he requests.
In 1985, the District Court found that Dettmer shall have the items he requested. The prison officials, unsettled by this part of the decision, appealed this case and in 1986, the case was heard by the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge J. Butzner then affirmed in part and reversed in part the decision of the District Court. He reaffirmed the fact that Wicca is a religion but denied Dettmer the right to have the items he requested based on the fact that even though those prisoners of more conventional religions had incense, candles, and whatnot in their services, none of the prisoners ever touched them, the preacher or minister always handled them, and never the prisoners themselves.
If you want to get the above information in full, go to your local law library and ask for the Federal Supplement #617, p. 592-597 for the first case Dettmer v. Landon 1985, and for the Federal Supplement #799, p. 929-934 for the appealed case Dettmer v. Landon 1986
All right, the reason I asked that question is, if it is legal to sell it, then there are no laws being broken if it is passed out or distributed at a Pagan Pride event, or anywhere else.
There could possibly be an exception in the case of local laws. That would depend on what the local standards are.
For example, it is not a crime to sell Playboy, Hustler, etc., in most if not all state jurisdictions. However, certain local ordinances might apply that would be more restrictive.
It is the same in regards to such things as strip clubs, adult book stores, x-rated movie theaters, etc. Zoning ordinances or other such local restrictions might apply.
I believe, in fact, this has already been decided at the Supreme Court level. I am not as well versed on the specifics of the case as many of you might well be, but I think I am on pretty solid ground here. It all comes down to community standards.
Therefore, AJ would be well-advised to check on local laws and ordinances before taking it upon himself to report such things as this, otherwise you could well find yourself in the position of facing accusations of filing a false report.
Bear in mind, such local restrictions, community standards, zoning laws, etc., apply in some types of matters as the ones I listed. They may very well not apply to a book that is nothing but written text, and especially in which the part in question is just one portion of the book, which has after all evidently been recognized on the federal level as a religious text.
Whatever the case, you would be well advised to familiarize yourself with local laws, otherwise you might well find yourself on the receiving end of said laws.
That being said-how can you report a law being violated when no laws have been violated? You can't report a violation of a law in the hopes that you can then proceed to change the law to what you want it to be.
Even if you do manage to change the law, you would still be guilty of filing a false report before the law was changed.
That would be like me going into a crowded theater, yelling "FIRE!", and then when they come to arrest me, I say, "well, I think that law should be changed."
In the unlikely event I succeed in having the law changed to where it then becomes legal to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, I still broke the law before that fact, and will still be liable for prosecution because of it. Even if my conviction is later overturned in the face of the change in the law, I am probably going to face some serious jail time and pay a substantial fine (which may or may not be reimbursed) before the slowly grinding wheels of justice ever get around to deciding that change in my favor.
I don't think that I am expressing myself clearly so I will try again.
There is no place in this country where it is legal to sell a book that instructs someone on how to do something that is illegal, whether that book is a religious text or not. So, A.J. is NOT trying to change a law anywhere, he is merely trying to point out where he believes one is being broken. So, your analogy of yelling fire in a crowded theater does not hold up. It would be more along the lines of seeing someone about to throw a lit cigarette into a trashcan at a crowded theater and reporting it to management.
AIMEEDREW-
Okay, so first you said it is legal, and now you are saying it's not legal. Well, either it is legal, or it is not. It can't be both. You can't have it both ways. Which is it?
I'm assuming that since it is being sold on e-bay, it is perfectly legal, at least on the federal level. Like I said, there might be community standards which might make it illegal in some specific municipalities, but that would be the limit.
There is no way The Good Witches Bible is illegal on the federal level, nor is it illegal in any state. There are no state laws that cover such a law. Again, these kinds of laws are all matters of local ordinances and community standards.
And since this is a written text, with no pornographic images whatsoever, I seriously doubt that even community standards would apply.
Even if the book says and does what you purport that it does-which I seriously doubt, by the way-I don't see how that would be different than my writing a book that outlines a ritual example of marijuana use. If you people had your way, I could easily be incarcerated or fined for encouraging use of marijuana,which is after all an illegal substance.
In fact, I have used marijuana in ritual, in conjunction with anise essential oil and clary sage essential oil. What a wild fucking ride that was, by the way.
Unfortunately, I don't do that type of thing any more, for the simple fact that I don't need the legal hassles, marijuana is way too expensive, and lastly I don't particularly care for the sort of people that you have to deal with when you do it. But that is neither here nor there.
The point is, should I worry about the feds knocking on my door if I describe in a written text how I went about this, and what the results were? I should certainly hope not, and that is just one major reason right there that it will be a cold day in hell before you get me on board this little endeavor you people are on.
It's that old law of unintended consequences that could come back to bite us all in the ass. You know, the old slippery slope thing. No thank you. Bad and dangerous precedents, once set, are not that easily reversed.
I would much prefer to keep things exactly as they are, secure in the knowledge that the vast majority of people have too much common sense and innate decency to go around fucking their daughters with homemade dildos, or in any other manner, whether in the context of religious rituals or otherwise.
If they don't, then well, their sons and daughters are in for some rough sledding in life, and what ever decision is made regarding this one book isn't going to change that. The only thing that will change that is if the world and every human being in it is made absolutely perfect. Good luck with that. I assume you believe in reincarnation? Well, you're going to go through quite a few of them before you ever see this fucked up world made perfect, I damn well promise you that it sure as hell won't be this in this one.
As I said I don't think that in my initial attempt I expressed myself clearly. And, no I don't believe in reincarnation, I am not pagan.
aimeedrew said...
As I said I don't think that in my initial attempt I expressed myself clearly. And, no I don't believe in reincarnation, I am not pagan.
September 16, 2007 2:47 PM
Aimee,
Does that mean your of a Christian faith or does that mean you have no faith whatsoever?
Because either way, by your own words you have absolutely NO business involving yourself in the Pagan Community.
How dare you attempt to force your thoughts and beliefs on us! We've dealt with Fred Phelps and sensationalist before.
Begone, and take care of the problems that pertain to you and your kind. Leave the workings of the Witches to those who understand the truth of their faith!
Debra Ravenswood
Wow Deb, that was dramatic. I am agnostic, but my husband is wiccan. By the way I didn't involve myself you brought my name up here. Up to the point that you brought my name up, the only involvement that I'd had was that I accidentally forgot to log out of Yahoo on my home computer. Yep, that's right, A.J. thinking he was logged in as himself joined and posted something to a Yahoo group as me. Contrary to what you've stated here, I have never had any kind of contact with anyone in Arkansas or anywhere else for that matter concerning, you, the Frosts or anything else to do with this, until now. But, now that you've threatened me with prosecution, I am involved, and will not back down. Because of the fact that I am not emotionally involved in the Frost issue, I can clearly see how ludicrous your statements of pending prosecution and litigation are. So keep talking and I'll keep laughing.
Whatever Aimee, your sad attempts to pass your involvement off on your husband are as reprehensible as your actions toward the Pagan Community. If you're gonna stick your neck out there and open your mouth at least have the balls to stand up for what you did.
No involvement? Then if your husband thought he was logged in as himself how did he manage to join or attempt to join a dozen or so Arkansas pagan groups in your name without noticing?
I might point out that when you join a Yahoo Group you have to choose the email address you want to use. Logged in as JaneDoe666 he could only point the email to JaneDoe666 or an email associated with that name, you can not assign it to the email of another person. Therefore, there was no "accident" as you claim.
If my husband went around joining Yahoo Groups under my ID I'd be a wee bit concerned. Especially in light of the fact that you've now been named in civil and possible criminal action.
Objective with no emotional involvement you state? And I quote: "So, go spew your bullshit to people as stupid as you, they might actually believe you." I'd say that sounds a bit emotional, wouldn't you.
My advice to you is if you are innocent and this is all your husbands "fault", act like it. Go play with your children and keep your nose out of our affairs.
Debra Ravenswood
Hello Debra, i hope PPD was a smash.hope Gavin and Yvonne are doing well. Debra i think Aimee is pulling a Tammy Wynette, shes gonna STAND BY HER MAN.Lol.. i kind of compare it to bilge rats jumpin ship when the Titanic sinks. The book is published, its being sold , and it is being read. They want to oust the Frosts from pagandom,not gonna happen. They want to get it out of circulation, not gonna happen. Are they going to divide the pagan community, and end up as pariahs.. YES.thats going to happen. To Gavin and Yvonne live long and prosper. To Aj and Aimee Drew..
KISS MY GRITS!!!
Shadowhawk and all,
Both Arkansas PPD's were great fun. We did have a bit of rain both weekends, but it was right at the end of the day so it was all good. Mother here needs her rain, we had a long hard summer and she's a bit parched so we feel we are doubly blessed.
We feel our efforts in the Pagan Community were postitive and although our numbers were down from last year, the people who came were incredibly supportive and upbeat. Not only did the Pagan Community turn out in the Frost's support but members of several churches in the area did the same.
Freedom of religion, free speech and right to assembly is important to all denominations regardless of their pantheons.
Probably the most landmark event was the media's desire to hear the Frost's side of things and report it objectively. The interview from the television station should be released for public viewing in a month or so. And the newspaper who covered not only the PPD but also the Frosts will be releasing that article next week.
I thank everyone for their prayers, spells and support of the Arkansas Pagan Pride Events. We've already started planning for next year.
Coordinating PPD events is a non-stop, ever evolving lesson in growth. We are hoping to come back next year bigger and better than ever before. And I'm praying we have more continuity within the Pagan Community as a whole and less bickering.
May the light of the Goddess always illuminate your paths,
Debra Ravenswood
I have stayed out of this because I have been asked to long enough. First of all.
aimeedrew said...
I don't think that I am expressing myself clearly so I will try again.
There is no place in this country where it is legal to sell a book that instructs someone on how to do something that is illegal, whether that book is a religious text or not. So, A.J. is NOT trying to change a law anywhere, he is merely trying to point out where he believes one is being broken. So, your analogy of yelling fire in a crowded theater does not hold up. It would be more along the lines of seeing someone about to throw a lit cigarette into a trashcan at a crowded theater and reporting it to management.
If you don't understand this you need to go back to school and deal with your comprehension skills. My 9 year old niece would understand it. And I'm sure you are older than nine.
Second
I thought Paganism was a religion where you grow through learning. And if one is Pagan and is open to learning would they not want to learn about other religions as well as their own. So don't go telling people
The Voice of Reason said...
Does that mean your of a Christian faith or does that mean you have no faith whatsoever?
Because either way, by your own words you have absolutely NO business involving yourself in the Pagan Community.
For all you know shes trying to learn about the Pagan Rites and Rituals from her husband.
And third and final. Before you post something like a child having a restraining order against a parent check and see if it is true. For what you give comes back time three. Or have you forgotten that.
Wow. Uh guys, I am Coffee_Drew@yahoo.com because it wouldn’t let me use any decent incarnation of my name and I was drinking coffee at the time.
You all are getting really nutty. Now I not only have a restraining order against me, but I was arrested for drugs, or wait someone else was arrested for drugs with my name.
“Yes your honor, its true. This man has no penis. Hey, it is what I heard.”
Ghost Busters
I am just dying to read the next little bit of insanity.
A.J. Drew
http://PaganNation.com
According to Ajs newest blog post he has evidently learned the location of The Frosts next appearances. Hes doing the same shit he pulled in Arkansas.My question for Aj is.. nothing happened in Arkansas , and nothing will happen in Toledo. So why do you continue on in this way.The BOOK IS LEGAL.. so your delusions of the Frosts getting arrested for pedophilic literature is just that. You sit here on THE FROSTS own blog and try to play the concerned citizen who just happens to be brain dead, like your doing this for our own good.. Grow up,move on, and learn to leave well enough alone
Debra
As I have stated the "Burden of Proof" IS on you. You keep spouting and spouting but you do not provide proof.
As I have stated time and time again
I am more than willing to listen to any reasonable discussion. Hard proof is what is needed though.
I do not follow blindly. I educate myself. I have found Chapter 4 of the Good Witches Bible that states you should use different size phalluses to prepare you prepubescent daughter to have sex with a coven member to be offensive and detrimental to the Pagan religion and to children. This instructional is on page 67 Chapter4 and page 99 Chapter 5 of the book. Since you Debra, doubt the book says such.
Having been a teacher, we had to understand and make “wise” decisions as to what could be used in the class rooms for education. Giving instructions on “how” to have sex and “preparing” for sex would have not only cost the educator their job but also a law suit. This was back in the 80s and 90s! The law now has become much stricter in regards to child sex educational material.
(oh and before anyone tries to insinuate anything I stopped teaching because I had a family and wished to raise my children. Plus with the gangs becoming so prominent I just did not need the hassles of whether my kids would be the ones to be shot). I did become a Den Mother, A Girl Scout Leader (yes I had to have a background check for this) and did charity work for the community I lived in concerning children.
As I have repeatedly said give me hard evidence that what has been said is not true and I will gladly post it far and wide.
BTW Debra
Anyone who knows the history between AJ Drew and myself will know that we do not and rarely see eye to eye or agree on much of anything.
He has his view and I have mine.
1. The case that has been posted here is one I already knew about. It does not mention the Good Witches Bible as Debra said it did. It only recognizes Wicca as a religion in the prisons.
2. I think what some need to really consider is the Federal law on Child Pornography.
3. It would also do some people a great deal towards their credit if they really backed up what they said and were polite about it.
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=1476#5
http://www.llrx.com/features/obscenitylaws.htm
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=458&invol=747
I know from my cousin who worked in D.C. for the government as a lawyer that the law is a slippery slope and can slide either way. BUT as has been brought to my attention by a few lawyers, Judges “frown” on anything that promotes child molestation.
Read about “Adam’s Law”
http://dying.about.com/od/suddendeath/a/adamlaw.htm
I would like to have a question of mine address so I could post the answer and at least give fair time to all involved.
“Why did the Frosts use “Clan of the Cave Bear” and “The Roots of Civilization” as documentation for Chapter 4?”
Another question I have is:
"What about child sex instructional isn't understood concerning Chapter4 and 5 of the Good Witches Bible?"
I will repeat.:
If anyone has any proof of what is written by Hans Holzer is false PLEASE let me know.
Thank you all for you time, effort and politeness.
Now as much fun as it is to play with wing nuts I have to prepare for this coming weekend’s Pagan Event and Red Dragon.
All right, to begin with, there is no law against a book that instructs someone on how to do something illegal. If there were, half of the fiction writers in the country today would be in danger of arrest and prosecution. They are always writing out scenarios that could easily be followed through by people that might for example think-
"Hmmmm,you know, if I kill these two hundred people I don't like in just the way it says in this here book, I bet I could get away with it. Maybe I can blame it on them thar Ay-rab tarrists. Or maybe I can make'em all think that ol' George Dubya Booooosh did it to blame them Ay-rab tarrists. Or maybe I can blame dem Joooos."
I'm telling you, as long as the book is legal, it can be passed out everywhere. I mean, unless it really is child pornography. Is it child pornography? If it's not, forget about it. I seriously doubt that it is, and I seriously doubt any community standards regarding pornograpy would apply either.
I can see through I'm wasting my time, you'uns have done made up your minds, I guess. A nine year old can tell that much as well.
Here is the post in question to the arkansas pagan yahoo group:
Arkansas Pagans proud of pedophilic instructional?
Over the next week, there will be two Pagan Pride events in Arkansas
which promote Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the founders of Wicca.
http://www.arkansaspagans.com/
Due to what appears to be a pedophilic instructional written by Gavin
and Yvonne Frost and their continued support of much of what is found
in that instructional, I do not believe the pagans of Arkansas (or
anywhere) should give the impression that the pagan community is
proud of these people.
I have attempted to explain this to the event organizers, but at
least one has sworn her undying support of the Frosts. She has
further explained how she is making press arrangements and interviews
for these people to used as examples of the pagan community and as
founders of Wicca.
I now write to you, the pagans of Arkansas and especially the Pagan
Parents of Arkansas and beg you to stand up for what is right. The
Arkansas Pagan Pride event has no ties to the national /
international organization Pagan Pride Project. They are an
independent organization which I think you can stand against if you
see fit. Not against the organization, but against their insistence
that Gavin and Yvonne Frost are something to be proud of.
Consider the quotes from their book (below) and consider that this is
what they have sold at other events where they attend. Do you want
the police, press, and general public to see this book for sale? Do
you want this book to represent you, the pagan community, as an
example of pride?
Dinner and Book signing with the Frosts - Friday, September 7, 2007
at 7pm
Public Contact Phone info: 501-472-9898 and 501-541-2214
Public Email: dravenswood06@..., crd68@...,
kremtvidje@...
Even with a disclaimer, encouraging illegal action such as child
molestation and rape may not be protected speech under the laws of
the United States of America. If it is, then YOUR freedom of speech
is needed nor on the eve of these events in your state.
Blessed be and live free,
A.J. Drew
http://PaganNation.com
It was followed with a copy of the quotes from the Frost's book. Now tell me Deb, do you think he would have signed it as himself if he had believed he was signed in as me?
And, I checked, I belong to 1 count that 1 Arkansas pagan group not the dozen or so that you claim.
So what else are you lying about?
AJ and Aimee-
Just curious about something. When you guys got married, and went on your honeymoon, what "instructional" did you read? Was it a good one? I'm assuming you learned how to do the dirty before you took that big step.
After all, marriage is supposed to be a lifelong commitment, not to be entered into lightly, and sex is a very vital part of that. I mean, I hope you read the right information, I sure hope you didn't read a manual with bad information. You know how messy these things can get.
I mean, surely someone pointed you in the right direction, otherwise, you might not even have known about honeymoon sex, right? I would really hate to think that you guys never "did it" because no one thought to provide you with the appropriate instructional information.
Hi all,
When I first began responding to the "Drew Faction" I really thought there was some intelligent thought behind their arguments and intelligence could be met with intelligence.
Unfortunately, I’ve discovered there is no intellect hiding in there. The Drews have no desire to pursue this in a court of law; if they did they would have been down at some courthouse with a copy of the GWB rallying support from someone in an authorative position. Instead they are content to set themselves up as Judge and Jury in the hopes that the Pagan Community would do their dirty work for them.
Well anyone who's anyone in Pagan Community promptly ran like they were on fire, and rightly so, when Drew announced they would be burning Witch's at the next Real Witch's Ball. Regardless of whether in effigy or in reality, a Witch Burning or any allusion to such is a very dangerous thing.
Even more fled the scene when the Drews attempted to involve the police in what was clearly a properly organized and valid religious event. Although the circumstances were very different it still smacked all too clearly to many of us of the events that led up to the Waco incident.
At this juncture the only support the Drews have are the people who rallied to their sides because of the sensationalized tactics they have deployed in their mindless, unreasoning attempts to discredit the Frosts and the Arkansas Pagan Pride coordinators.
It has been proven repeatedly that the information that the Drew's have spammed far and wide is not the information found in the Good Witch's Bible. And their statements that the Frosts never made any changes or added any disclaimers or addendums can be refuted by anyone who will pick up copies of the two books and compare them. Unfortunately there are and always will be those who are willing to believe sensationalism. Why do you think the National Inquirer and other such tabloids remain on the news stand.
In essence you could hand the Drews and their followers a decree directly from the Lord and Lady stating that they approved of the Frost's works and deeds and the Drews and their followers would do everything in their power to discredit it.
As I stated in another commentary we’ve got a lot of positive, good things going on here in our state and I’m content to let our attorney’s, investigators with police department and the Law of Return deal with the Drews.
Therefore, from this point forward I refuse to address or respond to the Drews and their ilk. Oh, I’m sure they will resort to the lowest of low tactics to get under your skin, but centuries of persecution have made Pagans a thick skinned lot. The majority of the Pagan Community has already turned its back on them and henceforth, so shall I. Bad behavior will not be recognized or rewarded.
I suggest everyone else do the same, if they post it, ignore it or delete it. Do not respond because in do so, you have provided them with the one thing they want....an audience.
Gavin will be posting another blog shortly and we can discuss it like the intelligent individuals we are.
Shielding up, ground and center, move forward.
Debra Ravenswood
To all – Have I yet mentioned that the organizer in chief of the International Real Witches Ball asked me some months ago about brining in Gavin and Yvonne Frost for a debate this year? I have her the OK and am told that there has never been a response. It has always been my intent to cause folk to think for themselves on this matter.
If the Frosts would like to email me, ajdrew at PaganNation dot com or visit http://PaganNation.com and use the private posting feature (kind of like email), I can still make this happen on our dime. In a day or so, that will no longer be possible as we will be dumping the last of our budget on extras (food, drink, and entertainment).
Pagan Temple – We are not speaking about a work of fiction. We are speaking about an instruction manual whose subtitle is “How to practice the oldest religion”. A book which has already been banned by state institutions.
Aimee – I think you are arguing with someone who does not yield to a point of logic. You have read her lies, why ask her for more?
Shadowhawk – According to the emails I received, the book was not sold at the North Little Rock Pagan Pride event. Deb has not disputed that. I have been rather clear that I do not believe the book would be sold at the Pagan Pride event the weekend after that. Deb has not disputed that. As the Frosts have a long history of selling that book at events they attend, I think something has changed. I think they are not willing to stand their grounds and offer it for sale because they suspect they will sell it to a representative of a municipality which might decide to prosecute.
In the case of the Toledo event, the function is being organized by a group called Spirit Weavers. They are using a local Unity Church. I do not think the local Unity Church and / or the National Unity Association will be pleased to learn what their church is being used for. Especially considering the Frost’s long and recent rants against Christianity and Christian Wiccans / Pagans. I could be wrong, but we will see.
I invite everyone to call the folk involved using their publicly provided telephone numbers and let them know what you think about this:
Spirit Weavers (419) 841-3172
Toledo Unity Church (419) 537-1001
If you support the Frosts, go ahead and let them know. If you think that their book is a potentially illegal pedophilic instructional and the Frost’s have been rather anti-Unity with their attacks on Christians, well let them know that as well. All I am asking is that folk speak their minds, what ever their opinion. In the end, we will see which ideology prevails.
More to Shadowhawk
I realize your opinion is shared by many people, that one should “learn to leave well enough alone” but not only do I not believe that is an appropriate course of action, I do not believe the continued sale of that book is “well enough” so I will not leave it alone.
I do, however, appreciate the tone that you are now using. I do not think there is anything wrong with two people finding themselves in oppostion on a matter. I think that if folk knew their own Will, it would not happen often. But even when they do, there will always be a time when Wills clash. In those instances, like brothers fight ye. (didn’t quote any of that because I think I paraphrased more than quote). Besides, Crowley was mostly paraphrasing phillosophers who came before him.
When young (dumb and full of, well you know) I used to troll my unit’s favorite bar waiting for a visit from a competing unit. If it didn’t come early enough, we would often go visit their bar. We’d get all drunk and beat on each other until the MPs came and put us in the pokey till Top came and got us out. No knives, no guns, just an honest dissagreement (whose unit rocked more) and a whole lot of dissagreeing. Now that I am older, the issues that I am concerned with have grown up with me. So I don’t much get into dissagreements over whose unit rocks the most and I do not use violence to settle intellectual / heartfelt matters. But the principle is the same. I find no reason to hate someone I dissagree with and kind of revil in the dissagreement the way I once reveled in bar brawls. So ye, when you argue well I gotta admit it is kind of fun. Especially since I haven’t noticed you using intellectual guns or knives (made up rumors) as has Deb and the Frosts.
BTW: How old are you? I am 42.
Blessed be and live free,
A.j. Drew
http://PaganNation.com
"when Drew announced they would be burning Witch's at the next Real Witch's Ball. Regardless of whether in effigy or in reality, a Witch Burning or any allusion to such is a very dangerous thing."
This statement of "burning" is a lie. Plain and simple.
Some wing nut decided to make this up just to incite.
Please before making such statements to get the facts straight it doesn't do any good to anyone's credit to get the facts wrong.
" they want....an audience."
Personally I don't need an audience. I am a solitary and am one because I do not like public displays.
I honestly came on here hoping to get some straight, truthful answers but I haven't as of yet unfortunately.
I am more than willing to listen to any reasonable statement. But I do not need “smoke blown up my arse” (as the saying goes)
Ignore me if you want but it doesn’t help the case any or anyone to do so.
“I” truly want straight answers.
"It has been proven repeatedly that the information that the Drew's have spammed far and wide is not the information found in the Good Witch's Bible. And their statements that the Frosts never made any changes or added any disclaimers or addendums can be refuted by anyone who will pick up copies of the two books and compare them."
This is a blatant lie. There is an instructional as to what size phallus to where and how long for how many days. There is also an instructional as to how to make this said phallus
http://dionysusdevotee.
livejournal.com/158630.html
http://www.freewebs.com/
percival342/pg99.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/
percival342/pg65.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/
percival342/pg66.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/
percival342/warning.jpg
Yes Deb i noticed that Aj is content to rant online or call out of state law officials, but wont get off his ass and do it himself.. Like this newest Trip with Toledo .. Aj you live in Ohio, why dont you get out there and confront that demon that torments you so.Go to Toledo and ask them yourself. Dont say.. Oh if you believe as i do then YOU call or YOU go to these events, whats the matter are your legs broke, and as far as them coming to YOUR event, come on, you know that isnt going to happen.. Its a biased venue, like leading Daniel to the Lions den. And as far as my age im 41. And my venom is still present, but i respect Gavin and Yvonne enough to NOT go nuts on there Blog, now on yours i could give a shit less
AJ-
So if Gavin and Yvonne would rewrite "The Good Witches Bible" in novel format, I take it you would have no problem with it?
Wouldn't be pulling my leg a little, would you, AJ?
Even if you're not, how can you possibly know it might not eventually lead to that kind of censorship? It wouldn't be the first time works of fiction have been deemed unacceptable by the powers that be.
I think many of them still are unacceptable in certain "state institutions".
"It has been proven repeatedly that the information that the Drew's have spammed far and wide is not the information found in the Good Witch's Bible. And their statements that the Frosts never made any changes or added any disclaimers or addendums can be refuted by anyone who will pick up copies of the two books and compare them."
Wow, aren't you glad you're not Christian? Because if you were, well we all know where liars go. You seem to be the only one refuting the quotes, I have checked them personally after reading this and they are word for word. Also, A.J. and others continually mention the added disclaimer, but as far as I can tell with a 1972 copy and a 2000 copy sitting right in front of me, that seems to be the only change made to the mentioned chapter. I really hope that you are suing us (ya right) because I'd love to see you on the stand with all of these provable lies thrown in you face. What a credible witness you'd make.
to the pagan temple,
I certainly understand your stance of I don't agree with what they said but will fight til the death for their right to say it. A noble American stance on any subject. I feel the same way on many things, such as the right of the KKK to assemble. I absolutely do not agree with their stance, but would argue til I'm red in the face with anyone who would deny their right to voice those opinions. However, I certainly wouldn't invite the leader to tea or fraternize with them in any way.
Having seen your past posts in which you say you don't agree with what the book says, then future posts where you are basically gushing over the Frosts this is the image that I am given of you. You are so angry at what you see as an infringement of their rights that you have decided to join the KKK. (BTW to all who are going to say that I just accused you of being a member of the KKK, that was a metaphor for the Frosts). I'm certainly not asking you to join the other side, as you obviously really don't agree with their stance, but you don't seem to agree with the book either, so why join either side?
So Aimee your basically Fighting for truth justice and the American way.. Yea right... Now you call the Frosts KKK, how civil, I really really do hope this goes to the courts, to see you and Aj humiliated legally would make my day
Debra Ravenswood, you have twice claimed in this thread that the texts being quoted are different from the alleged originals. This is the first time, as far as I know, that anyone made this claim in the three months the Frosts' books have been under discussion.
Please supply the quotes in question, along with their URLs, and what you say is the correct text, giving page numbers and edition information.
met·a·phor /ˈmÉ›təˌfÉ”r, -fÉ™r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[met-uh-fawr, -fer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
Bubba i wasnt adressing you, so you need to back the fuck up off me, and Aimee i see you can use a dictionary, metaphor my ass, you knew you were calling them KKK, so dont even go there.. It seems the Drewidiots are getting vicious. Why is that. Are they frustrated with the fact that there campaign to DEFROST is at a dead end. Oh yes they will do there little effigy sacrifice and feel better and give each other high 5s, but in the end they will NEVER get rid of the Frosts, or there books.. Maybe that reality is starting to sink in
no honey , im smart as a whip, im not committing ritual murder at samhain, your husband is and you support that. So whos dumb.. I dont think its me..
"Bubba i wasnt adressing you, so you need to back the fuck up off me,..."
You were addressing my sister( see my def. of Bubba in earlier post) so I suggest you back the fuck up!
"no honey , im smart as a whip, im not committing ritual murder at samhain, your husband is and you support that."
Again, no one is committing "ritual murder at Samhain". You are lying & twisting peoples words.
"So whos dumb.. I dont think its me.."
I'm sorry, but your posts prove otherwise.
Umm guys...
I posted a site I found that has "images" of the book by a percival342
NOT typed in text.
I think it is kind of hard to disprove "images"
HERE THEY ARE AGAIN
PLEASE check it out.
http://dionysusdevotee.
livejournal.com/158630.html
http://www.freewebs.com/
percival342/pg99.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/
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I googled the word SACRIFICE
the act of killing (an animal or person) in order to propitiate a deity
Heres the definition of EFFIGY
a substitute or symbol of someone or something hated, eg, a stuffed dummy that represents a despised person
so NOW that you have BOTH definitions you cannot DENY that the SACRIFICE OF CARING..is in fact symbolic or ritualized form of murder
"And she is NOT your sister, she is a woman posting on a blog."
She is my sister; as in kin, blood, one of my mother's children.
As to definitions; AJ has posted the definitions he was following, you're just too dense to get it.
Aj in his own personal blog stated as well as in Jason Fitz-Walters Wildhunt Blog that HE was leading the ritual, he mentioned NOTHING of a group of OTHERS.. also he illuded to in his own blog, HOW LIFELIKE the EFFIGYS were, there is even a post from the EFFIGY maker. Dont try to bullshit me Bubba, it isnt going to work
From Ajs Blog FUCKING GIMPS..post number 26
Shadowhawk - Just so that you know, Joki_K is the semi-professional artist (she’s got kids so professional is kind of difficult) who is making the life size realistic effigy of Gavin and Yvonne Frost. From what I understand, complete with body cavities for reasons I wont discuss publicly.
So if this is just some innocent little ritual why all the LIES from Aj..
AimeeDrew-
Well, I for one sure would like to know how you can disagree with someone and "gush" over them at the same time. Damn, that's a neat trick, I must be a better witch than I thought I was.
I disagreed with them over their proposal to remove "Intacta"-the hymen in the case of female children-in what I still consider a misguided belief this will benefit children in some way.
Still, while I disagree with them over this-and strongly, I might add-at the same time, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they propose this for any sinister purpose. I just think they are wrong, that's all. I still think their intentions are good.
I'm sorry, I just don't see anything good coming from all this. I also fail to see how demeaning somebody over one passage in one book-however ill advised it might or might not have been-is appropriate in the face of all their other positive works and actions over the years.
I also still think there's a danger that, in the very unlikely event you succeed in having this book declared a violation of some law, it could set a dangerous precedent. At the very least, it could set up years of legal wrangling that would be very counter-productive to any kind of further creative output.
Again, there are a lot of things illegal, and there are a lot of passages in a lot of books that could be deemed "instructional" as to how to commit these illegal activities, in both non-fiction and fiction. I just don't think we ought to be going there.
All this over the prospect that a relative handful of people might read one passage in one book from nineteen seventy two and decide to ritually molest their daughter.
Hate to break it to you, but the people that might be inclined to do stuff like that, well, they don't need a book to put the thought in their heads.
All – Wow, more lies.
Concerning Aimees reference to KKK and the Frosts, it seems Shadowhawk missed her clear disclaimer which read “BTW to all who are going to say that I just accused you of being a member of the KKK, that was a metaphor for the Frosts”. Why would she use the KKK as an example?
My guess is that in researching the material for my blog entry concerning why I think the trafficking in this book is a violation of Federal Law under many sections of Title 18, a Supreme Court case came up in which the First Amendment Rights of the KKK came into question. This led to the current interpretation of Freedom of Speech and Unprotected Speech.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/18/title-18-violations-and-unprotected-speech/
At the very basic level of the Supreme Courts interpretation of the First Amendment, what they say is that encouraging folk to break the law in print excludes First Amendment protection of the material in print. It does not in and of itself make the material illegal to be unprotected speech, but removes First Amendment protection from other laws, which can then be used to prosecute.
However, if there is a desire to compare the teachings of Gavin and Yvonne Frost to that of the KKK, we can also look to their statements which seem to be rather homophobic as I am fairly sure the KKK is at least equally opposed to homosexuality as the Frosts have indicated they are.
BTW: Have they ever bothered to apologize for that?
Rhiannon – Thank you. I was not aware of those images of the book pages. I had read someone was posting them but didn’t catch the urls. You (and many others) have been great help in all of this. But you stand out because we have had words in the past. It is good to know that there are folk such as you who understand the simple logic that folk can disagree on one issue and agree on the other instead of acting like a bunch of democrats and republicans (oh I hate that).
Shadowhawk – I am leading the ritual. I am not writing it. I have not disputed having life size effigies in the process of being created. I have disputed the claim that I have posed with them, sword in hand, and I have disputed the repeated claims that I am planning on burning, disemboweling, beheading or the other lies that have been spread. Thank you for pointing this out as the body cavities within the effigies will later prove the original intent.
Additionally, long before a member of the ritual team for Sacrifice for Caring brought up the fact that she could create life size effigies, I had been clear that I am going to “Sacrifice the Frosts in Effigy” and I have been clear that I will not be using any form of violence or symbolic murder. I have also provided the key to understanding my intent, a key that any serious practitioner of magick will understand.
“It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take ‘magical weapons’, pen, ink, and paper; I write ‘incantations’–these sentences–in the ‘magical language’ i.e., that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth ’spirits’, such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to these people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will.” - Aleister Crowley - Magick in Theory and Practice
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/03/magick-and-reality/
If you leave your imagination out of it, I am confused as to why you think that my stating that effigies are being made is in conflict with anything else that I have said or why you think that my leading the ritual is in conflict with other people writing it. Could you explain? Where do you see a conflict in statements? The only one I can see is a matter of dates and times which have been changing rapidly as the IRWB schedule of events fills. All of a sudden we are getting huge responses and frankly are running out of room on the schedule, organizational tables, and other resources. So expect things to keep changing.
I have no doubt this will be an absolutely beautiful ritual with tremendous social relevance.
Concerning your provided definition for Sacrifice, uh ok what ever you like. I think if you check a dictionary you will find a much different story and if you check with ADF and other structured pagan organization you will find an even further explanation. Your definition provides only for a blood sacrifice to a deity, folk often sacrifice items which do not involve killing something and which do not involve a deity. The ritual in question is a “Sacrifice to Caring”, not a “Sacrifice to [insert deity here]” so obviously we are using the words differently. As a vegetarian, I do not sacrifice animals in rituals. Although if you are going to eat meat, I would encourage you only to eat meat that was killed with sacred attention to minimizing the suffering of the animal (such as Kosher meat). But that debate is ongoing in heathen forums and will probably result in a very good set of guidelines shortly, so we need not address it much.
Pagan Temple – What good is coming from this? Well, CUUPS is in the process of creating a statement of sexual ethics in response to this. The document’s framer hopes that it will become standard in our community. That seems like a good thing.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/12/cuups-starts-to-defrost-bless-you-rev-landon/
Deb, from Pagan Pride Arkansas, is now aware of the photographs of the book and thus must know that what Gavin Frost read to the press was likely a lie. So Pagan Pride Arkansas has become aware of the Frost’s tactics.
From what has been reported to me, the book was not sold in Arkansas at the recent two PP events. I do not believe it will be sold in Toledo at the coming event. I know for a fact that over 20,000 people have been asked to contact the authorities in the Frosts home town concerning the sale of that book from their website, so I imagine that is going to stop shortly.
Retailers and online dealers are pulling the book from their shelves.
I think a great amount of good has come from this. It is becoming clear that at least a segment of our community has a zero tolerance for such literature and the conduct that it promotes. We are standing up, we are taking note, and above all accomplishments we are talking about it. I feel rather successful in my efforts, but I gotta tell you that it is folk like you who have made it possible. The bloggers, even the ones who attacked me, made this all possible and it is a wonderful feeling! After writing about it in books, talking about it at http://pagannation.com, lecturing about it at conventions, and so on and so forth, it never occurred to me that becoming a blogger would make all the difference in the world.
I even think that this blog, the Frosts blog, is one of the major reasons it is all happening. Consider the post about destroying the hymen and cutting the foreskin. The Frosts honestly think that helps their cause, but when ever they open their mouth, well you see what happens. Consider the reported rumor about the restraining order, again the Frosts open their mouth and out comes material which folk identify with their character. I didn’t start the Defrosting campaign, I just made the most noise. But now it is in the hands of bloggers, including the Frosts. Collectively, they are the ones leading the way (even the Frosts) in addressing this matter and at the front of the Defrosting campaign. It is alive, it is its own entity now, with its own will and it is amazing to watch.
Deb – Uh, when did I say there was not a disclaimer or additional information? I quote the disclaimer often to demonstrate just how insincere it seems. Now the former content is exactly the same, with additions, as far as I can tell, and the Frosts state in one of the later editions that this is the case. Additionally, I often quote the added material because it states rather firmly that what is contained in the reproduced content is exactly what the Frosts originally taught and that they state they practiced what they taught. Hence, my belief that they have committed and / or participated in sexual crimes against children.
I have mentioned all of this in my blog, in letters, in emails, and just about as often as I can because I feel it is important to illustrate that they were later clear that this WAS there original teachings and that they claim they DID practice what is contained in their teachings. All of this can only be found in the later additions of the book in the material that is reportedly a disclaimer.
Considering the photographs now available, does this mean that you and Pagan Pride Arkansas made it possible for Gavin Frost to lie about the content of the book with your approval and the approval of Pagan Pride Arkansas? I mean, you did say that the quotes I provided were not the same as what he read, you did say that it was recorded on video tape, and Rhiannon did just post a link to the photographs. This is EXACTLY why I originally contacted Pagan Pride, so that they would know the truth and NOT do as you have now stated in this forum that you have done.
For Deb and Pagan Pride Arkansas – I can fully understand your desire to support Freedom of Religion, Freedom of the Press, and Freedom of Speech. My wife and I agree that these things are sacred in this country. I have served this country and still consider my oath to defend the sacred document, which illustrates these principles to be enforced. However, I also believe that when a crime is encouraged or that a book is obscene that the Supreme Court has been clear that First Amendment protections do not come into play. They have concluded this because the First Amendment was intended to protect something much more than the individual, it was intended to protect the United States of America and its citizens as a collective.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/18/title-18-violations-and-unprotected-speech/
Certainly now that you have witnessed Gavin Frost read the quotes completely differently from how I have reported them, now that you have access to photographs of the book (linked by Rhiannon) and now that you realize you and your organization were the very tool for Gavin Frost to misinform the press, you feel some resentment for being manipulated.
I am not asking that you hug, kiss, or otherwise embrace the folk who have come to be called Defrosters. I am just asking that you consider the war between us over, as you now know that the issue of the war, the content of that book, is exactly as I have presented it. Well, that or the photographs are lies as well.
Aj you have such a high opinion of yourself.. You have done nothing.. except delude yourself into thinking what your doing is right
But you are so very wrong.. I guarantee the book is being sold by the Frosts at there scheduled events. And i see your not adressing the issue of why dont YOU get off your ass and drive to toledo and confront the Frosts. Or are you content in others doing your dirty work for you. You think you are winning this War.. But you are seriously Losing
Pagan Temple,
I said "Having seen your past posts in which you say you don't agree with what the book says, then future posts where you are basically gushing over the Frosts"
Sorry, though I'm sure you are a very effective witch, I was not implying any special abilities.
When it is on a subject such as this, and they continue to back it, I don't see how anyone could any longer give them the benefit of the doubt. The blog post that you mentioned is proof enough that they stand by to this day what they originally wrote 35 years ago. I understand your feelings on freedom of speech, and am not trying to pick on you. I was honestly just wondering as you seem to be the only one of any intelligence posting to this board in defense of the Frosts, and by the mixed messages of your various posts,if you were letting the emotion of the freedom of speech issue override your real opinion of the actual issue at hand, causing you to appear to be championing them when what you are really meaning to champion is their right to freedom of speech.
Hmm looks like theres no response to my question.. WHY WONT YOU CONFRONT THE FROSTS IN TOLEDO.you have no problem asking others to call or attend these events to get answers to questions about the Witches Bible. But instead Aj says..If YOU believe a law will be broken, then make it known to authorities. You have these venues that YOU can attend.. I seriously doubt you will. Cowards tend to delegate the dirty work
Aimee why dont you answer the question.. Calling me dumb just proves that you and your husband are armchair advocates, your husband admonishes others to do things he WONT do .. why is that Aimee.. why does he want OTHERS to attend the events the Frosts will be speaking. He Admonishes OTHERS to call the authorities. So Aimee its quite a simple question WHY WONT AJ GO TO TOLEDO..now lets see if you answer without calling me dumb, all it does is make you look petty
"Wow, Shadowhawk, you're dumb"
I do believe you're right, Sis.
I wonder; is it genetic, or was he dropped on his head as a child?
Shadowhawk,
In the very same blog post of A.J.'s that you are quoting he ends the post by saying
"But as always, it is up to YOU to decide what YOU think is right and what your actions should be. I know what mine will be. I will let my opinion be heard."
I've always been told there are no such things as stupid questions, but you keep proving that wrong time and again. So why don't you leave the discussion of matters to people of at least normal intelligence and go back to playing Everquest until your mom kicks you out of her basement.
So "fanatical reformers" = people who don't feel children should face ritual sex abuse in the name of the God or the Goddess?
".fanaticism" -- is that one of those newfangled domains?
There's some new information on p.99 that hasn't been mentioned before. Thanks for the scan. It's Fair Use, of course, because this is news.
"Dimensional deviations in phalli are sometimes required. The need is determined between the sponsor and the flamenca."
Perhaps there is a woodworker who could make a couple of models from the diagram on page 99? It's sort of like a wooden tampon complete with string, or something a virgin 6th grader is more likely to be familiar with -- a jump-rope handle. If you do a photo for us, include a quarter or a My Little Pony in the shot so we can see the size.
Hmm, dimensions. That would have to be length or width, given that it's cylindrical.
I'd like to ask Yvonne Frost, as the flamenca who wrote this, what "need" would have to be determined. Seeing as it it comes under the category of some of "the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca."
http://www.freewebs.com/controversialstudy/WB/ForwardToChapterIV.htm
What criteria would Yvonne use to define the "need," and how would she determine if a child needs an adjustment to her phalli [sic]?
After all, it's not like you can just look from the outside and determine she has an elephant yoni. Oh wait, then she must mean it might need to be made smaller.
So let's see. The sponsor is not someone who is necessarily experienced in how to make the first sexual experience pleasurable and meaningful. As given in the instructions, the child's sponsor is the most recently initiated member of the coven (though possibly if he's too well hung for deflowering a kid somebody else could do it, according to the Frosts' instructions). Opposite sex, of course, except for the flamenca who has to see what size dildo is needed. Daddy's not helping his daughter yet at this stage.
But the sponsor, no matter if he's a fellow sixth grader showing the "stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present," who just got initiated last week, gets to help the flamenca figure out if a child's vagina can accomodate the standard kid's size My First Dildo.
Since this is weeks before the actual coven initiation, I suppose this is not part of the "formal" initiation they aren't allowed to do on children anymore. Must be okay then. Of course, the Daddy helping bit, and the live sex demonstration don't seem to be part of the "formal" initation either, so maybe they are deemed okay too, since if you've got "formal" you'll have other things that are not-formal. Shh! Just don't tell!
And Yvonne, as a fellow mom, I'm curious as to where the moms of the initiates stand here. After all, after the mom does the home genital surgery, she doesn't get mentioned in the excerpts we've seen on the Church and School of Wicca's early initiation practices.
If the mom just got initated herself, does she help her son join the coven
and have a pleasurable first sexual experience?
Or does that come under the "too large a differential in age or physique" clause? If so, where do you draw the line on age differences? Or is it just understood that Daddies can help their daughters with dildos, but fucking your mother is not so good? It's quite a relief to know that you have some boundaries regarding ritual sex with children.
What did you say to the mother of an initiate back in those days to reassure her, if she had any qualms about her sixth grade child being sexually initiated into Wicca?
I ask because as a mother of one daughter, and step-parent of a boy and a girl (all of the kids possibly not having reached puberty yet while you were writing your Wicca initiation instructions), you probably have more parenting experience than a lot of the readers here.
And as flamenca, your job would probably be to sort of be the hostess, especially back in those days. Your daughter Bronwyn seems to see it that way, saying that she feels "the role of a high priestess is to help organize the ceremony, provide correspondences and select the right kind of music for the ceremony," according to one interviewer.
http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0607/wicca.html
No tracks for the ceremony by the swing band Cherry Poppin' Daddies, though -- people might get the wrong ideas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_Poppin'_Daddies
For the THIRD TIME you duck my question.. WHY WONT AJ GO TO TOLEDO.. Is it that hes scared, is he afraid of confrontation, he sees the Frosts as EVIL, this is not a stuipid question, why are you speaking for him.. AJ answer the question.This is a prime opportunity for your views to be heard. Wouldnt the Frosts being in Ohio be the prime time to do so.. so now AJ how bout answering my question
Why should anyone have to travel to talk to the Frosts, when Gavin and Yvonne could just answer questions publicly on their own blog?
Why do you assume that they'd be willing to answer questions in person, when they refuse to do so here?
A direct quote from ajs own blog
I invite you to read the quotes from Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s Witches Bible / Good Witches Bible. If you believe Spirit Weavers or the First Church Unity should reconsider this event, I think you should let them know how you feel and why you feel that way. If you believe a law will be broken, I believe you should report it to the Toledo authorities.
Notice his use of the word YOU, never once does he say, i will call the Toledo authorities, or I will go to toledo. And as far as the Frosts answering questions here, do you think for one minute any responses from the Drewbies would be anything but attacks and verbal fencing.. If Aj went to Toledo, and confronted them face to face there would be no room for error.. Ask his questions, get answered or not thats the chance one takes with face to face interaction.. So AGAIN i ask Aj, Why wont you go to Toledo
Hmmm Looking through all the posts on the many web sites and rereading them.
I do not see any where in any of them that says AJ Drew is not going to Toledo. Of course nothing says that is is either.
So I guess that we will have to wait and see.......:)
Shadowhawk - I am honestly attempting to understand your stance on things. Now you are saying I am not willing to call the authorities on this matter where before either you or Deb was insisting that I had already called the authorities. Please help me to understand what you are so upset about.
I think I have already said that I am hoping to attend the event in Toledo. In fact, I distinctly remember mentioning a conversation with authorities to insure I can not be arrested for having possession of the book.
Carol and Rhiannon - Aimee and I have agreed, we never want to have either of you pissed off at us. It would be like getting a snapping turtle to release its jaws. I dont think that happens.
All - Without the current chapter introductions with the disclaimer, does anyone think the book is not clearly an instruction to have sex with children?
That is to say, if the book were in print today without the disclaimer, would it be a violation of law to print and sell it?
AJ-
So now you are saying that CUUPS is going to release a statement informing us of what our sexual policies should be? Damn, I can't wait to read that. I'd better keep my cock in my pants until that comes out, huh-just to be on the safe side?
Do you realize how damn insulting that is? What makes you think I am going to listen to or adhere to the word of some organization that I have no input into whatsoever?
What is it with all of these half-baked organizations? Why should I concern myself with CUUPS, or PUC, or AREN, or any of those two-bit numbnuts? I seem to think I can think for myself, and don't need any organization telling me what my ethical position on any matter should be.
I've got something else to say later about another comment you made, but this one just blew my mind so much, I think I need to take a breather. Believe me, there will be more later.
I asked a friend about obscenity law and showed him Ajs blog about title 18 and obscenity law, heres what he said
The Good witches bible fails Drew's Miller test. The whole work as to be considered obscene not a few passages. This is why porno mags publish articles on different non-sexual topics. Drew is barking up the wrong tree. And its not against the law to advocate in print illegal acts. No one has ever shut down Uncle Fester's Meth Manufacture book which is in its 6th edition or Paladin press's books on how to be a hit man! The US Federal government only once temporary prosecuted a book and that is when the FDA went after Wilhelm Reich and is orgone collector machine (they seized his machine and inventory of books and incentorated them), since then only visual media has rarely been prosuected and then by the States.
jim
I totally agree with Jim
AJ Drew and Aimee
Just don't be stupid while making an argument with me and you have nothing to fear.
AJ
You and I have gone head to head before many times. Eye scratching and hair pulling and you survived! LOL I think this may be the first topic we have kind of agreed on.
You may call me the “rabid civet”. (Old story behind that)
Basically I have very little if any emotional ties to this. I just look for facts and state them as they are found or come to me by other citizens.
I am wondering what credentials “Jim” may have. Is he a lawyer? A Judge? What? Even the police cannot say what way a judge may rule for sure on any case.
I see there are only a few now who are willing to discuss the topic of the book since the images came out. Hmmmmm
What images? Drawings? What are they? I've seen Frost style drawings and diagrams before, in "The magic Power Of Witchcraft". If the diagrams in question are along those lines, I don't think they have anything to worry about.
What, is there some little kid getting screwed by a dildo? Is the image of the man doing it to her seen to have an erection? Is he slobbering, eyes wide with lust? Does the little kid in the diagram seem to be experiencing an orgasm?
I seriously doubt any of these descriptions would apply to a Frost diagram.
So what is it then? A diagram of a dildo? That is what you think constitutes pornography? You people are really starting to worry me.
By the way, I might be doing a post on my blog here in a day or two. I am having a hard time deciding on the title of it. I do have a tentative, working title, and I was wondering what everybody thinks about it.
The title is-
AJ DREW ADMITS-"I AM A COMMUNIST"
The only problem is, that's not an actual quote, but it is a more than accurate paraphrase of some words he said on a recent comment on this post.
What about it, folks? Any thoughts?
Pagan temple .. What the images were are scans of various pages of text from freewebs.com user percival432in deference to posts made by Debraa Ravenswood. No pictures of dildos or Gavin and Yvonne at a sit down meal of unbaptized male babies. They were poor scans for sure . The links didnt work for me so i google percival432 and went into his freewebs page that way. And as to your blog title, seems appropriate to me. And rhiannon as to my friend he is an author on subjects as buddhism and subjects pertaining to Asatru. Yesa judge can rule anyway they please basically but they still have to follow the rule of law, and consider many case precedents
Temple,
... Um... Well... With people out there who DO think it's OK to have sex with children, most sane organization leaders do tend to want to specify that SOME things just aren't OK.... Hey- that's also why society has laws... And wait a minute- having sex with kids is illegal...
I'm confused... Do you feel that society's laws are unacceptable because they don't allow people to think for themselves? Or do you merely find it irritating that the community is finding it necessary to reinforce those laws with statements from their own organizations reiterating some of those laws? Not trying to be a smart ass here- just confused as to why you've got your knickers in a knot over it...
The Images were small but even with my eye sight (In old lady voice)move over sonny) I could read them.
There is a diagram of a dildo (Phalli Details). There is a time chart of when to wear what size dildo and for how long. Who should help the child insert this "palli" in to their vagina if the child is unable to do so for themselves.
Then there is the warning at the beginning of the book, I think to prove it really is from the book.
All very readable.
I compare this book to having a Meth lab in the trunk of your car. Both could be explosive.
Thank you Shadowhawk for clearing up about your friend Jim's expertise on the topic.
Definitions of child pornography
Visual images (or sometimes written passages) depicting minors (under the age of legal consent) in explicit sexual activity.
has been defined under federal statute as a visual depiction of a minor (child younger than 18) engaged in sexually explicit conduct ( 18 USC 2256
Also the general definition of Pornography is .. Images or sometimes written text when viewed incite a person to sexual arousal
I see NOTHING in any of those passages depicting a Specific minor.. nor does any of those passages provoke a person to sexual arousal.. unless they are just a sick person in the first place..
Certainly now that you have witnessed Gavin Frost read the quotes completely differently from how I have reported them, now that you have access to photographs of the book (linked by Rhiannon) and now that you realize you and your organization were the very tool for Gavin Frost to misinform the press, you feel some resentment for being manipulated.
I am not asking that you hug, kiss, or otherwise embrace the folk who have come to be called Defrosters. I am just asking that you consider the war between us over,
When we get something in here worth discussing, I'll jump right back in with both feet. But until you can just keep hoping it's "over".....
MOM-E-
There is no organization that has any kind of overarching power over Wiccans or other pagans. For CUUPS, AREN, or PUC, etc., to come out with a statement or a policy position on ANY matter and think every pagan in the US, the world, or the known or unknown universe should feel obliged to abide by it, is the height of arrogance.
I'm a solitary practitioner myself, but someday I might get together with a group of like-minded individuals, and we might start our own coven, with our own beliefs and traditions.
What if our beliefs don't always mesh with the accepted party line of CUUPS? Are they going to "excommunicate" us? Oooooohhhh-
If you're so weak-minded you feel you need some group of windbags to tell you what to think and believe, send me an e-mail, I'll be glad to help you out. I promise you anything I would tell you would be every bit of valid as anything any of them would tell you.
I sure as hell ain't going to tell you to have sex with your kids, or with anybody else's kids, I promise you that much. What's more, I sure as hell would hope you wouldn't need anybody to tell you that.
I've been involved with some of these people before, I know what they are about, it's all about them wanting power and influence over as many people as possible. When I used to be a member of the AREN Yahoo group, they spent all their time and energy pushing the Darla Kaye Wynn horse shit. I finally got disgusted with them and left.
This thing here against the Frosts smacks of the same kind of power grab, only in the opposite way. There, they were trying to promote somebody that in my view was a phony.
In this case, it's all about tearing somebody down that in my view doesn't deserve that kind of treatment, regardless of whether or not I might agree or disagree on any certain aspect of what they may or may not really believe.
Again, I don't need any group speaking for me or telling me what to believe. Nobody.
Of course there are laws in secular society. There has to be. If there weren't, there would be societal chaos. Those laws are meant to establish boundaries, and to impose appropriate punishments when those boundaries are breached. That is all that is necessary.
No one should have to be forced to not molest their children, and for some group to send out some kind of written statement pertaining to what is acceptable and not in regards to any kind of sexual conduct is pretty damn sad.
What are we, a bunch of damn savage Hebrews that need somebody to tell us it's wrong to steal and commit murder? If that's the best we can strive for, we might as well fucking hang it up.
Carol Maltby says-
Why should anyone have to travel to talk to the Frosts, when Gavin and Yvonne could just answer questions publicly on their own blog?
Why do you assume that they'd be willing to answer questions in person, when they refuse to do so here?
*I* Say-
So what happened to all this drama earlier about "Oh we don't know where they are they won't tell us how can we go talk to them if they don't let us know where they are, WAAAHHHH"-
AJ DREW SAYS-
They have concluded this because the First Amendment was intended to protect something much more than the individual, it was intended to protect the United States of America and its citizens as a collective.
*I* SAY-
HUH? No, it protects each individual citizens right to free speech, freedom of the press (and access to same), and freedom of religion.
Yeah, originally, states were given a lot of leeway, but this pretty much fell to the wayside with the passage of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments.
With the passage of those two amendments, each individual citizen was granted the same rights and guarantees of the constitution and the Bill of Rights as formerly was reserved for the states acting on behalf of it's citizens.
In other words, not only can the federal government at least theoretically not pass any laws infringing on any individual's constitutional rights, but neither can any state do that.
Otherwise, if I could get enough of my state legislators to go along with me, then the next time Barak Obama pays a neighborly visit to Kentucky, I might waylay his ass. I might be able to get a pretty penny for the lad.
You might want to try Cuba, AJ. The climate might do you good, and I'm sure you'll be much happier living in a country where the rights of the collective society are given priority over the rights of the individual, who pretty much has no rights.
See, here, individuals do have rights, as spelled out in the Bill of Rights, whether you like it or not.
So what happened to all this drama earlier about "Oh we don't know where they are they won't tell us how can we go talk to them if they don't let us know where they are, WAAAHHHH"-
Not questions I raised, and thus irrelevant. I have no interest in seeing the Frosts in person. I want their responses in writing in public, and on the record, not blown away on the wind.
Hi Debra hope all iswell with you. And to adress the Face to Face with Gavin and Yvonne if one was to ask them these questions and they were answered why get them in writing, i see you saying no i want it in writing.. Yes a written statement goes a long away but when it comes to Drewbies it could also be used as something to hold over ones head. And to Pagan Temple Cuba wouldnt take Aj now maybe China or the like. I agree ive seen the in fighting and power grabbing even here where i live. A pagans sexuality is there own, and if there smart enough to keep it confined to themselves and consenting adults its all good. But no one is going to dictate pagan sexual mores . So Cuups or Cog or The Ring Of Troth or whoever have no bearing on who i am as a pagan..
Shadowhawk-
The Ring Of Troth? That's Asatru, ain't it? Is it like a coven, or is it one of these groups that want to try to lord it over everybody that calls themselves Asatru whether they like it or not?
See, there's a big difference in voluntarily joining a coven or organization, such as "Church And School Of Wicca", or another such group, where you enter into it knowingly and willingly as to what the rules and such are. After all, nobody is forcing you to join them. If you don't like the rules, you simply don't join.
But some of these groups that think they are going to try and speak for everybody, like AREN (Alternative Religions Education Network) or PUC (Pagan Unity Campaign) are really barking up the wrong tree.
As for CUUPS, I have never even heard of them before I started reading this blog. I don't even know what the hell the letters strand for. Why should any of us listen to what they have to say on any subject? Or any of the others like that? They aren't anything to me, or to any of us.
Evidently, some of these people think we ought to have something like the Vatican, with themselves (of course) annointed as Cardinals and Bishops to lord it over us great unwashed commoners that just don't know any better than to go around doing things we shouldn't do. Otherwise, we might go around molesting our kids. Don't you think that's insulting as hell? I sure as hell do.
I guess the next thing they'll be telling us is what pantheon is acceptable, and which gods and goddesses should be included or excluded from those pantheons. Since I'm Hellenic, seeing as how Wicca these days is overrun to a great extent with peaceniks, I guess I can say goodbye to Ares, that damn warmonger.
Oh, and Artemis? She doesn't really believe in killing and eating those poor, defenseless animals, you know. We should all be vegans and spend our time hunting oatmeal.
Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but the point is, there's no way pagans can be brought into one overrarching tent that makes everybody's decisions for them and tells them what's right, wrong, what to do, what to believe, etc.
AJ's little remark about how the First Amendment wasn't meant for individuals, but for the American people as a "collective" (a classical commie aphorism, by the way) speaks volumes.
"What are we, a bunch of damn savage Hebrews..."
"AJ's little remark about how the First Amendment wasn't meant for individuals, but for the American people as a "collective" (a classical commie aphorism, by the way) speaks volumes."
Damn; thought I was going to a pagan blog, looks more like Aryan Nations.
How sad.
Temple,
Certainly you can understand the desire for an organization to make such rules and statements FOR ITS MEMBERS?
Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere where ANYONE is suggesting anything for ALL of "Pagandom" (whatever that encompasses) LOL!
However- I think that many people- AS HUMAN BEINGS are asserting that engaging in sexual activity with children is WRONG. That's not a Pagan thing. It seems a very common-sense mandate to make, actually. If you recognize the common sense of not having sex with a child, then the statement is clearly not necessary FOR YOU. Unfortunately, there are some people out there who either feel that it IS OK, or who make justifications for it 'under certain circumstances' or what have you. There is also the desire to present a positive image to the non-Pagan/Wiccan community and by such organizations making such statements, they are showing those outside of their community that they do NOT support certain things. In short- I'd suggest not being offended at the organizations for feeling it necessary to make such statements, but be offended by those who have created the feeling that such statements are necessary in the first place.
(I find it both amusing and irritating that there are warnings not to use my hair dryer *in the shower*. Seems a matter of common sense to *me*- but apparantly someone out there didn't and all of a sudden we have huge red and white flags flying off the cords of hairdryers everywhere warning us against using electric devices while in the water. (DUH).) So rather than get annoyed with the organization for trying to avoid the chaos that occurs without rules- get annoyed with people who didn't read the 'common sense manual'.
So what happened to all this drama earlier about "Oh we don't know where they are they won't tell us how can we go talk to them if they don't let us know where they are, WAAAHHHH"-
Umm we found out where they are going to be so that is taken care of. End of matter.
“And to adress the Face to Face with Gavin and Yvonne if one was to ask them these questions and they were answered why get them in writing, i see you saying no i want it in writing..”
Well that is easily taken care of. There recording devices that can be used. Now you may say that those can be falsified but so can writings. (ahhh now I place a lot of doubt on just about everything)
“Evidently, some of these people think we ought to have something like the Vatican, with themselves (of course) annointed as Cardinals and Bishops to lord it over us great unwashed commoners”
Isn’t it Gavin Frost who titled himself as the Pope of Wicca? I have to go and find where that statement came from now.
I still would like to know why they used the baton de commandment as documentation for Chapter 4? It just doesn’t make any sense at all. Unless………
"So rather than get annoyed with the organization for trying to avoid the chaos that occurs without rules- get annoyed with people who didn't read the 'common sense manual'."
You do know that water is a controlled substance now when used in treating dehydration.
Also Boric Acid is controled. The same stuff our tears are made from is dangerous to us.
Soon we will be needing a doctors script for common asprin. Oh wait....
Pagan Temple.. CUUPS stands for.. Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagansandas far as the Pope of Wicca i believe it was John Todd in one of his anti witch craft writings talking about the Illuminati saying there is a group or council of thirteen with Gavin as its head and Isaac Bonewits its enforcer or some such, Basically the ranting of a deluded man
"Common sense" would tell you that religious leaders who admit that at one point the religion they founded practiced incest and ritual sex abuse of children (as described in their book that tells you how to practice their religion), did facilitate the systematic abuse of children.
"Common sense" would tell you that saying something was practiced decades ago does not rule out that it has been ongoing up until the present day.
"Common sense" would tell you that the National Enquirer readers that Gavin and Yvonne Frost so assiduously courted are gullible and not very bright or discerning.
"Common sense" would tell you that inviting people who have advocated sexual abuse of children in the name of Wicca to speak at your Pagan event indicates a reckless disregard for the welfare of the children
in your community.
"Common sense" would tell you that when people have written a gazillion books, and have sold correspondence courses for thirty years, it shouldn't be a big deal to ask them to put anything in writing and take responsibility for their words.
Common sense says that just because its written in a book doesnt make it true
common sense says if you read the entire passages it does Not say.. YOU go out AND YOU do this or do that..
common sense shows that the Frosts have NOT advocated child molestation, for that to be true there would have be a statement somewhere saying YOU go out and molest a child
common sense shows that in the late 60s early 70s the Enquirer was the cheapest way to reach a mass audience.. irregardless of its readerships mental accuity
common sense says that accusation without out evidence is just hearsay .. so now what Carol??
Shadowhawk,
I know I've said it before but you just keep amazing me. Wow, you're dumb.
Bubba-
So I guess I'm talking to another one of AJ's fellow travellers.
So me being against communism makes me an "Aryan Nation"? So be it!
I believe in individual rights, I don't believe in collectivism, or in internationalism. The fact that you people promote that is enough right there to make me support the Frosts against you regardless of what the Frosts believe or don't believe in.
Take that however you want to take it.
If you were referring to what I said about "savage Hebrews", well, what can I say?
Fact-They were Hebrews
Fact-They were savages
Fact-any group of people that have to be told murder and theft is wrong are savages.
The fact that they were savages, and they were Hebrews, makes them savage Hebrews. Pretty damn logical to me.
Of course since Shadowhawk kindly explained to me exactly what CUUPS is-a banch of Unitarian Universalism-I see now exactly what you are, a bunch of ultra liberal leftists and communist fellow travellers who thinks all the religions of the world should all get together in one big melting pot.
Sorry, not interested!
The book, The Hit Man, met with huge legal issues until it was discovered to be a work of fiction written by a housewife who had never killed a single person. In fact, that was her defence.
Please follow - To be considered Obscene material, the whole of the work has to be considered. However, to be considered Unprotected Speech, a single line can be considered if that single line advocates the breaking of the law.
There are two distinctly different issues at hand. If a book advocates the breaking of the Law, it is Not Protected Speech (even if it is one line that does so).
Now if it is unprotected speech due to the advocation to break law, well then stating that it is Obscene material is not all that hard as it no longer has First Amendment Protection. At least that is how I see it.
This would be why you do not see adult literature saying you should have sex with children.
Ah, but what about that disclaimer? Well now, when was that added to the book?
First off Pagan Temple lets not go all republican here im a liberal with a brain, unlike Aimee Drew whos main comment is to call someone dumb, she does that mainly because she knows what i speak is the truth. I dont want to see a melting pot but what i do want to see is religious freedom, freedom that isnt dictated by the likes of Cuups or AJ DREW. kind of reminds me of the line from Valientes charge of the Godess
All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
Most pagans like Aj seem to see that as something horrible,like Aj is the spokesman for pagan family values
Face it Aj the book is in print
Pagans are shunning you like the plague for what your doing
This campaign will not oust the Frosts from the pagan community..
Its time to end this, your grandstanding as the saviour and advocate of all things of pure pagan morality is a sham an you know it
common sense shows that the Frosts have NOT advocated child molestation, for that to be true there would have be a statement somewhere saying YOU go out and molest a child
Gavin and Yvonne Frost's book was subtitled "How to Practice the Oldest Religion" at the very least until the 1989 edition, and possibly further. That's a statement that the book is the instructions for the practice. A "how-to book," as the subtitle very bluntly says.
"Judy can pat the bunny. Now YOU pat the bunny" is for toddlers.
Those old enough to read "How to Practice the Oldest Religion" don't need to be explicitly taken by the hand and told, "Now YOU boil the phallus in beeswax."
Shadowhawk-
I'm not a Republican or a Democrat in reality, though I'm a registered Democrat. As far as liberal or conservative, that depends on the individual issue. Sometimes, on some issues I'm "conservative", on other issues I take the "liberal" stance. I'm independent, basically, and go with what seems appropriate on any given issue.
I would be as stridently against any self-described "conservative" organization as I would be "liberals" like CUUPS.
As far as I'm concerned, whether they are liberal or conservative, they are all about power and control.
Hope that clears that up.
"So me being against communism makes me an "Aryan Nation"? So be it!"
No, standing just to the right of Jesse Helms makes you a neo-nazi like the Aryan Nations.
Calling anyone, even slightly, to the left of you a communist makes you a fascist like the Aryan Nations.
Using antisemitic terms like "savage Hebrews" makes you a nazi pile of shit like Aryan Nations!!!
Nuff' said!
MOM-E-
"Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere where ANYONE is suggesting anything for ALL of "Pagandom" (whatever that encompasses) LOL!"
You are suggesting that the Frosts be driven out of the pagan community. Or that's what seems to be going on. Or are you saying it's fine with you if they keep active in the community and the rest of us want to hear what they have to say on any matter? Please explain yourself here. What you are saying seems somewhat contradictory.
Do you not suggest they should be run out, and abandoned?
As for this so-called need to publish a set of guidelines of sexual ethics I understand to an extent what you're saying. I just get annoyed to all hell and back when people make statements about how the Constitution and Bill of Rights are not meant for individuals, but for the "collective" people of the country. That is flat out wrong.
Also, personally I don't care one whit whether my religious views are accepted by the "mainstream community". It's going to take a lot more than a statement of ethics issued by an organization to win that acceptance, especially since no organization speaks for all pagans.
We'll never be accepted by mainstream Christians, especially the conservative fundies. As for the liberals, like UU, well, you might win some degree of acceptance as long as you play by their rules. I don't want to compromise my principles, personally. Religion wasn't meant to be a melting pot, and there are certain things that will never be accepted by Christians, even liberal ones.
The UU even issued a statement disavowing a polyamory group of UU's. Well, there you go. If you're not polyamory, well, no big deal, right? Oh, but what if you are? Different matter then, huh?
So if they can issue a statement against polyamories, what's to stop them from expressing disapproval at any other specific pagan practice.
By the way, did you know that Aprhodite disapproves of the eating of pork? I didn't know that, damned if that ain't news to me. Still, a cult of California Aphrodite worshippers believes just that. Now I wonder where they got that from? Reckon she came down from on high one day and told somebody she hates pork chops?
Me, I tend to think she was "channelled" through some Jewish kid, or maybe Muslim, that thought his own cultural sensibilities should be respected. Or I guess it's possible the coven wanted to establish a rapport with CAIR, just to show them that some pagans are well-meaning and understanding, and have sympathy for their cultural sensitivities.
Who knows? Who cares? I attune with Aphrodite, among other Hellenic deities. In fact, if you have ever seen my blog, that's her at the top of my main page.
I also habitually attune with ham, bacon, sausage, and pork chops. It hasn't seemed to bother her yet.
Yeah, I might go to a UU one of these days and check them out. Who knows, maybe I can make some use from the experience. Maybe I'll like it enough to go on a somewhat regular basis.
In the final analysis, though, if they don't like some aspect of my own personal, private beliefs, that's just tough shit. I'll stick with my own Book of Shadows, thank you very much. It hasn't steered me wrong yet, and I seriously doubt the UU can improve on it.
Pagan Temple,
Wow, was that a threat?
Shadowhawk,
I keep saying that you are dumb, because trying to reply to any of your posts would take hours to point out why each thing that you say is so incredibly stupid and I've noticed when people try, you just say something even more stupid.
example: Rhiannon asks what qualifications your friend has to make a statement regarding the legality of the book. i.e. is he a lawyer?
You answer he is qualified because he writes books on Buddhism and Asatru.
Again I'll say it wow, you're dumb.
You are such an ignorant woman, my friend is a published writer and author, so he knows about books . YOU on the other hand are the wife of a brain dead hack who plans to ritually murder someone in effigy. LEARN to read between the lines, or does your familys obvious low iq prevent you from doing so. i would pity you but decided against it. See the Drewbies seem to think that there cause makes them somehow superior to others who dont share there viewpoint. Which really it doesnt matter, for what you ATTEMPT to do or prove is being disproven.. The Frosts book is protected by law, if it wasnt it would have been dealt with by authorities in our country with the job to deal with this issue, that being the United States Supreme Court. But guess what its 35 years later and its still here. Aj is trying to oust the Frosts from pagandom , they were involved in it before your hack husband every knew what wicca was, there not going anywhere.
I can promise you 2 things, 1. Aj is going to fail at his quest and fail miserably
and 2. you are always going to be an ignorant bitch.. and Bubba, well all i can say about him is.. Derrr!!!!
"my friend is a published writer and author, so he knows about books"
Ok, but how does that make him an expert in law????
I have a cousin who in D.C. is a lawyer for the government. I have a friend who is a prosecutor.
My fiancé is the son and grandson of lawyers.
My list goes on.
I don’t want to fight I just want to know how being an author makes him an expert in law? Since he doesn’t write the law. I have written many articles but that doesn’t make me an expert even though I have enough lawyers in the family not to have to worry. None of that makes me an expert in law.
Oh I reread one of your posts, Shadowhawk, on precedence and Judges can make precedence. That is how precedence is made is by a Judge’s decision. Lawyers use it to make their case to the Judge.
Gavin, Yvonne:
I will step aside from the Drew-baiting and ask a different question:
If Europeans did indeed pick up syphilis from the New World, what other social diseases did Augustine of Hippo (that slippery lawyer) have?
Believe, I am no fan of the guy, but I wondered.
AIMEEDREW-
"Pagan Temple,
Wow, was that a threat?"
No, because I'm not a Nazi. His little rant about me being a Nazi is a typical commie diversionary tactic. I've seen it a million times. Doesn't mean a damn thing, because everybody usually sees through it.
I'm still waiting for a response to my observation on your husband's statement to the effect that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and in this case the First Amendment, was meant not to protect individuals, but American Society as a "collective".
I say that is typical communist philosophy and interpretation. Do you stand by your husband and what he wrote in this regard, or do you disavow it?
Just tell it like it is. You have a consitutional right to be a communist, if that is what you and AJ really believe in. And if you really believe that interpretation of the Consitution and the Bill of Rights, then that is what you are, communists, plain and simple.
Wear that red pentacle proud. Just tell it like it is. No need to use subterfuge, the truth will always come out one way or another.
Pagan Temple,
Sorry I do disagree with you, if what you are saying about the constitution and the bill of rights is correct then please explain eminent domain to me.
Good to see you here Chas, and Pagan Temple, becareful now , Drew is blogging about you
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/20/bubba-threatened-by-frosted-flake/
One day soon this is all going to come to its final conclusion and i so pray that the Gods let me see the downfall of Aj Drew
This i direct to all the Drewbies
RESPECTING THE FOOL AND THEIR INANITY :
There are three schools of the foolish person: the punishment of the law49, ill happenings in their life, and a bad position in the life to come50.
Three things which befall the unwise person: failure, disgrace, and sorrow.
Three boasts of a fool: riches, lineage, and dissipation.
Three laughters of a fool: about the good man, about the evil man, and about what he knows not.
Three things which the fool calls imprudent: to seek knowledge, come what will; to give alms without thinking what is to come; and to endure for truth and justice without fear of what may come.
Chas.-
Makes me wish I'd picked up that book "City of God" when I had the chance. I got so turned off by his obviously purposeful misrepresentation of the worship of Dionysius, I decided in knee-jerk fashion it wasn't worth my time.
I just picked the thing up, thumbed through it haphazardly, and that was the first thing I read. He was an obvious liar and propogandist.
Nice to see an opportunity for us to get back on topic.
AIMEE-
Eminent Domain is specifically mentioned in the constitution, so it is constitutional. It was agreed on and voted by the members of the Constitutional Convention, I believe, or it might have been put in there later. Whatever the case, it is there, and so it is constitutional.
It was seen as a necessity, to insure the legitimate needs were met, such things as roads, schools, hospitals, etc. The last few years, though,it has been badly abused, and used for the purposes of large businesses to swallow up land, sometimes resulting in the loss of small businesses, homes, and other private property.
That has nothing to do with the Bill of Rights. Whether you and AJ like it or not, the First Amendment guarantees of freedom of Speech and Press were meant to protect the individuals rights. This was especially clarified with the passage of the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments.
It was especially meant to protect minority rights, but was in general meant to insure the rights of all, whether minority or majority peoples and viewpoints.
Sure, there is a fine line, and cases where the rights of society at large take precedence over the rights of an individual. Those cases (such as Eminent Domain) are always spelled out.
That is not the general meaning of the Bill of Rights, though. It was meant to protect individual speech and other individual rights,as well as minority rights, specifically from the potential tyranny of the majority, and especially of the potential tyranny of the government itself.
Even given the need to protect society as a whole in some specified cases, that in no case translates into the First Amendment being meant to protect American society as a "collective", and not individuals. Again, that is a typical communist philosophy. Maybe you don't realize you have adopted a communist belief, but if that is truly what you believe, then it is what it is.
Shadowhawk-
Thanks for telling me that. Yeah, I went and read it. No worries. Like I said, "if" I was a Nazi. I'm not, so AJ can use all the little misrepresentation and subterfuge he wants. I think most people see through him and his manipulations. If they don't, they're not worth worrying about.
What is it with him and this "Frosted Flakes" crap anyway? Does he think that's funny?
Of course, he has already admitted in this blog posts comments section that he does not believe in or support an individual's right to freedom of speech. I guess it's only logical to assume that he would lump everybody that doesn't agree with him into one category and slam us in a derogatory manner.
Communists tend to do that kind of thing, you know. I think we'd better be the ones worrying about whether there might be a gulag in our futures.
"Those old enough to read "How to Practice the Oldest Religion" don't need to be explicitly taken by the hand and told, "Now YOU boil the phallus in beeswax.""
*Snort* (Chuckle)! Honestly people- I think we need a popcorn stand- this is entertainment here! LOL!
***You are suggesting that the Frosts be driven out of the pagan community.***
I am suggesting that *these teachings* be driven out of the community, in the sense that I feel that people of common sense and character should not tolerate or defend such material. Given that I have yet to see any sort of reasonable explaination or apologies from the Frosts, then yes- I do feel it inappropriate that they be recognized as 'leaders', 'teachers', 'elders' or even as welcome speakers or participating individuals should they not stand up and clearly and strongly state that what had been written (and without disclaimer for so many years) is in fact WRONG and *harmful*. I don't feel that events should host them, I don't feel that bookstores should carry their works.
If they *were* to make a sincere and meaningful attempt to rectify this situation- that opinion might change- I don't know. I unfortunately have not met them in person nor have they made any sensical rebuttals to the issue at hand. So were they to do so- I can't say what my reaction/opinion might be at that time.
***...when people make statements about how the Constitution and Bill of Rights are not meant for individuals, but for the "collective" people of the country. That is flat out wrong.***
I understand that- but what I think he was trying to get across was that it wasn't ONLY for the individual. It was also meant to protect the interest/security of the society. Individuals yes- first and foremost- but not *exclusively* if that makes sense? To me, I like to think that our Founding Fathers recognized that one persons right to (insert action here) ends where another persons right not to be unduly affected by (insert action here) begins. It's one of the reasons I think that there are public nudity/sex/drunkenness/smoking laws/controls. ;)
***Also, personally I don't care one whit whether my religious views are accepted by the "mainstream community".***
In the short run? I agree with you. Looking at the bigger picture? I think it bears consideration. If mainstream society views certain writings and reads them as others clearly are (including myself) then they tend to get panicky. This leads to all sorts of unsavory situations such as people burning things on ones front lawn, breaking out ones car windows, job discrimination, stickier divorce cases etc. For me? I don't care whether society accepts my beliefs. But I sure as hells don't want society getting ahold of the Frosts book, reading it and associating ME with it by proxy.
***Religion wasn't meant to be a melting pot***
I agree 100%. However- for practical purposes- religions *should* at least attempt to get along reasonably well. That's somewhat harder to do when one religions authors are writing about what appears to be the sexual initiation of children. Other things can generally be ignored and chalked up to 'religious differences' or 'to each their own' but that one is a sticking point.
***Reckon she came down from on high one day and told somebody she hates pork chops?***
(Chuckle!) ;) Eh- she's never had a good chop cooked right ;)
***Me, I tend to think she was "channelled" through some Jewish kid, or maybe Muslim, that thought his own cultural sensibilities should be respected.***
As tends to happen with many aspects of religion ;) However- some are more necessary to address than others. Pork? I could care less either way about. Polyamoury? Whatever floats your boat. But sex with children? That one I have a real problem with, being a mother and a (last time I checked) sane human being. ;)
***I also habitually attune with ham, bacon, sausage, and pork chops. It hasn't seemed to bother her yet.***
ROFL ;)
Here's the bottom line... individuals have to decide for themselves what they believe is right and what they believe is wrong. No one can decide that for them. That is WHY awareness is being raised to this book- so that people can read it for themselves and decide what THEY think.
Organizations can come up with rules and regulations that apply to THEIR organization. That's fine and dandy- if one doesn't care for those rules- one doesn't need to join that organization. One can remain organizationless or go start their own. Thing is- IMO there *are* a (very) few things that should probably be universal. And the whole sex with kids thing is pretty much at the top of that very short list. If an adult wants to have one other adult partner or 100- I really don't care. But the minute they start in on children 'at the earliest possible age' and 'at the onset of menses' then I gotta say something because I feel it doesn't get much more wrong than that.
I can even understand if someone were to say later 'Ya know- it was the 60's- we were stoned- reading back on it now- yeah- that was pretty f-ed up and we're sorry'. But to continue to justify it? That bothers me.
From what I'm hearing in a number of comments over the past few months, most of you are young enough that the sixties is just ancient history for you.
My first sexual experiences were in the late sixties. I think it was an extraordinary time to be growing up, and a time of what was in many ways a very healthy and liberating overthrowing of
repressive sexual attitudes.
But no matter how far out there we went, or how accepting of other consenting adults doing things we weren't interested in exploring,I don't ever remember people feeling or saying back then that it was okay to fuck children.
"The Sixties made me do it" is one of those "The dog ate my homework" excuses that just doesn't have any traction.
Carol,
I agree- but it's *something* and it's more than what I'm seeing now. So I'd consider even THAT a step in the right direction...
I agree- but it's *something* and it's more than what I'm seeing now. So I'd consider even THAT a step in the right direction...
I don't think it's going to happen, Mom-E. Because I think it is something they still deeply believe is right. And because there could be legal liability, I can't see them saying anything that might implicate them, this side of a witness stand.
Look at the "Frosts and Sex-Intacta" blog entry from August. The issues they bring up there seem as fresh and current for them as they were decades ago when they wrote about them in the book. It's something they are clearly very passionate about.
I still don't see any evidence that Gavin and Yvonne Frost understand the concept of boundaries, or the idea that the sexuality of children is not something to be controlled and manipulated and orchestrated.
MOM-E-
The Frosts are the leaders of The Church And School Of Wicca. Nothing else. They are no more the leaders of all Wicca than the Pope is the head of all Christianity.
When they go to a pagan event, they are going not as leaders of the entire community, they are going as speakers and practitioners-and yes, leaders-of one branch. One school of thought, if you will. Yes, they have had an influence. Yes, we can debate the impact of that influence, for good or bad. But this idea that they should be sacrificed in a "ritual of caring", or whatever such nonsense AJ is promoting-that's just beyond the pale, in my honest opinion.
If people look at them as leaders, then that is just how they see them personally. I see them as people of wisdom and experience whose opinion I would certainly value in *SOME* cases. In *OTHER* cases, I might simply and respectfully disagree with them. Why not just leave it at that and move on?
The best way to clear up any misinterpretations as to what Wiccans/Pagans believe, is simply to point out the fact that there is no one Wiccan/Pagan view on anything. We are not now, never have been, nor ever will be, one vast, monolithic organization. That is how it should be.
Christians don't agree on everything. Neither do Hindus, Jews, or even Muslims or Buddhists. Why should pagans be united on all issues when no one else is?
That is the closest you will ever get to explaining the situation.
As for this sixties aspect, I was the first one-at least I was the first one that I know about-that proposed this as a possible explanation. I was jumping to the conclusion, by the way, that AJ was right in his accusations about the writings in "The Good Witches Bible", and what they meant.
Now, I'm not so sure. I've never actually read it, and no, I won't click on a link to read one passage from it. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that they did promote this dildo stuff and other things AJ insists they did.
Put it in context of what times were like in the sixties. You are looking at a time when juvenile delinquency, juvenile crime, sex, drug use, etc., was off the charts. There was never a time like it before.
Bear in mind that IF-IF-they promoted this, that reality might be the perspective from which they approached it. They actually might have considered it a way that might help the situation. I'm not saying I agree if this were the case, but bear in mind, this was also a period of all around social turbulence and turmoil, and nutty, ill-advised ideas were the norm, not the exception.
Now, of course, we are far more aware in this day and age of what the long term psychological damage of such things can be. Back in those days, the implications and results were not so obvious. It's easy to judge actions from a modern perspective. It's just like a century and a half ago, the best doctors in the world prescribed mercury on a habitual basis as a cure all for just about everything.
Well, now of course we know that mercury ingested in even the smallest amounts is a deadly poison. What should we do, dig all those old doctors up and scatter their bones in disgust? I hardly think that would be appropriate now, do you?
***The Frosts are the leaders of The Church And School Of Wicca. Nothing else. They are no more the leaders of all Wicca than the Pope is the head of all Christianity.***
I never suggested that they were "the leaders of all Wicca" ;) I said that they were viewed (by SOME) to be leaders in the community. Whether authors realize it, know it, like it or not- something about being in print makes others view one as some sort of 'authority' to an extent. Being asked to speak at events does this as well.
***But this idea that they should be sacrificed in a "ritual of caring", or whatever such nonsense AJ is promoting-that's just beyond the pale, in my honest opinion.***
This isn't about what AJ is or isn't doing (which you do have quite a misconception of what is actually going on, btw- but that's neither here nor there as far as addressing what the Frosts have written...)
***If people look at them as leaders, then that is just how they see them personally... In *OTHER* cases, I might simply and respectfully disagree with them. Why not just leave it at that and move on? ***
True- but at the same time- in situations such as this- with the perception of the advocation of child rape- this is more serious than just matters of 'well... I dislike/disagree with how they (insert practice here).
***The best way to clear up any misinterpretations as to what Wiccans/Pagans believe, is simply to point out the fact that there is no one Wiccan/Pagan view on anything.***
Yes and no. In cases dealing with situations as serious as this one- saying that and nothing more leaves the impression that one is taking the concern of the material lightly and is sort of saying "Well- maybe they do (advocate child sexual initiation), but not everyone does so it's OK". IMO I don't think it's OK, nor do I think it responsible to say nothing in light of the concern... They may well have done other GOOD things, but this is one seriously bad one that IMO outweighs anything and everything else.
***We are not now, never have been, nor ever will be, one vast, monolithic organization. That is how it should be.***
I agree, but that's hardly the point. Religion or not, religious stance or not- this is an issue that HUMANITY should be standing in vocal opposition to. We aren't talking the hundred other issues that you could raise- we are talking about one very specific concern- that of the sexual initiation of children.
***Why should pagans be united on all issues when no one else is?***
I don't expect them to be. Frankly I think things would be very boring if they were. However- on THIS singular and very specific issue- I DO think that all Pagans, all Wiccans, all PEOPLE should agree.
***As for this sixties aspect, I was the first one-at least I was the first one that I know about-that proposed this as a possible explanation.***
Here on this blog in this thread perhaps ;) Probably not in the many MANY discussions out there on the subject in general. It's certainly not the first time I've heard it, or even used it. LOL ;)
***Now, I'm not so sure. I've never actually read it, and no, I won't click on a link to read one passage from it. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that they did promote this dildo stuff and other things AJ insists they did.***
I have the book right here. Give me a po box # or something and you are welcome to read for yourself. My dime for postage to and from. IMO I think that anyone arguing for ANY position in this (or any other issue really) should be informed as to what is being argued *about*.
***Bear in mind that IF-IF-they promoted this, that reality might be the perspective from which they approached it.***
I don't doubt that it's a possibility. However- I am of the mind that when one makes a mistake, one should own up to it. All I see is justification at this point. This is why I said elsewhere- IF they were to sincerely explain it that way and own up to the fact that the reading as most are taking it is just plain and simply WRONG- then I *might* be inclined to chalk it up to that and move on and look at whatever else they may have done for the good. But given that the disclaimer was absent until seemingly the year 2000 and reading the text as it is written... Well... Read for yourself and see what YOU think.
The bottom line is that they aren't responding in a responsible manner to these concerns. If someone took something that YOU had written as an instructional on child rape- what would be the first thing you would do?
The first thing *I* would do would be to immediately and vocally correct the misconception if it was indeed a misconception. If it was NOT a misconception and one realized later that it was a Very Bad Thing- the responsible thing would be to publically apologize and retract the material- refusing to sell something that one then recognized as harmful. Or do you see another way that the Frosts might respond appropriately in this situation?
Don't get me wrong- the idea of trying to make a situation better is a good one, and that I can respect. However- the method that is proposed here is NOT a good one, and that I *cannot* respect.
I DO wish they would address this somewhere that the masses could 'get' where they are coming from. If they truly aren't advocating child rape and intending things as many are reading it- I think it bears some serious explaination and attention- don't you?
The term "jail bait," meaning a girl who is under the age of consent for sexual activity, first appears in print when Gavin Frost was 4 years old. Other people seemed to have grasped the idea that you shouldn't have sex with children long before the sixties, and long after the sixties.
When a product is used as directed and is made in such a way that people will be injured by its use, the makers are legally responsible.
When the "Bible" telling how to practice a religion gives instructions that will bring children to harm, the leaders of the tradition who wrote those instructions and do not disavow them are responsible for acts which they have taught as being a standard part of the practice of their religion.
Aside from the issue of ritual sex abuse of children, the Frosts appear to have lied about their credentials for decades, and other statements they've used to justify their practice have been found to be false. I see no reason to be proud of Pagans who lie so flagrantly, or pretend it doesn't matter.
One doesn't need to be a lawyer to keep up on the ins and outs of first amendment law. To learn about the 1st amendment law one only needs to read the legal section of the AVN:
http://www.avn.com
They are on the cutting edge of federal and state enforcement of oscenity law.
Well, maybe they will say something one of these days to that effect, I don't know, I'm not their keeper or their adviser. All I am doing is offering a possible explanation. To tell you the truth, this isn't really that important to me. They believe what they believe, I believe what I believe.
In the meantime, I would like to point out that you all are apparently following the lead of, and taking your cues from, an individual who promotes and advocates a communist interpretation of the First Amendment.
I find that far more disturbing than what the Frosts may or may not believe on this issue. For one thing, if they do really believe what you imply, they are not going to have many followers, and what followers they might have, are the kinds of people I frankly would not want to associate with.
AJ, on the other hand, is promoting in at least this one aspect a philosophy that has promoted unmentionable misery for hundreds of millions of human beings across the globe.
And this is coming from a person who has a communist friend, though I think he is well-meaning and sincere, but misguided. He is under no illusions as to how I feel about communism, put it that way.
Yet, when I point this out about AJ, one of his other followers, in typical rope-a-dope fashion, calls me a fascist or a Nazi and suggests I might be more at home at Aryan Nations. Then, when I make an off-handed smart-ass remark of what I might do "IF" I were a Nazi, AJ can't wait to get on his blog and go on about how I have "threatened" one of his good buddies.
Oh, and I am a "Frosted Flake". Yeah, real cute, AJ.
I don't know about you all, but I don't know of many Nazi or Aryan nation types that would spend a whole month blogging on behalf of New Orleans black victims of Hurricane Katrina, and all but accuse the government of trying to run them out so they can grab up their land on the cheap and turn it into a resort for the wealthy and corporate execs.
Go on over to my blog and click on the archives for September of 05, and tell me how much of a Nazi I read like.
Yet, because I mentioned something about "Savage Hebrews", I am anti-Semitic. See, AJ has shown me that he's just using all of this bombast to get his way. He even said something about me being against Jews, or something to that effect.
Well, here's something for you to consider. The term Hebrews does not pertain to Jews exclusively. The Jews were just one out of twelve tribes that at one time belonged to the Hebrews (actually, Hapiru).
Yeah, they were savage. So what? I still say they were savage. So I am anti-semitic because I recognize that FACT?
And while I've criticized the Israeli government for certain actions and positions, I have actually defended them more than I've criticized them. I've defended them enough that if I ever had an SS or Nazi Party membership card, I think I would have been asked to turn it in a long time ago.
In the meantime, AJ makes the most outlandish, ill-advised accusations and insinuations I have ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on. I'm not talking about me here, I'm talking about somebody else. I think he knows what I'm talking about too, and about who.
What he is doing is skating on thin ice. You see, here's the thing. It's one thing to accuse somebody you think of as a potential victimizer. It's quite another to make accusations against somebody else that is an innocent bystander at best, and a potential victim at worse.
I think he owes somebody an apology, to be blunt. I don't think the person will ever get it though.
AJ Drew should be ashamed of himself.
Dear Gavin & Yvonne,
So nice to see you all again. It has been ages since we have had any contact. I completed your correspondence course on Wicca many years ago and even made it to a Samhain in New Bern once. You had a speaker who talked about Santeria that year, very interesting fellow. And it must have planted some seeds in my body, mind, and soul, because African Diaspora spirituality became an interest of mine in later years. It was a very nice time in my life.
A few years a go your astrology course caught my interest and I completed that. I have a nice program for astrology now from Matrix Software.
It was interesting to see you have a blog now. Periodically I visit you home page at www.wicca.org and noticed your monthly statement with a link to this blog at the end, now you have a new reader (lol). Not that you need any more traffic, from the amount of comments associated to your entries, I can see you have plenty of readers already.
Sorry for the off topic post.
Sincerely,
David H.
Houston, TX
***To tell you the truth, this isn't really that important to me. They believe what they believe, I believe what I believe.***
... You post an awful lot on the subject to say it 'isn't really that important' to you...
***In the meantime, I would like to point out that you all are apparently following the lead of, and taking your cues from, an individual who promotes and advocates a communist interpretation of the First Amendment.***
First of all- AJ is the person who drew my attention to the matter. That is all. That I disagree with the material as much as he does does NOT mean that I 'follow' him or 'take cues' from anyone but my own conscience. Is it that strange that numerous people would read something and come to similar conclusions/understandings?
***For one thing, if they do really believe what you imply, they are not going to have many followers, and what followers they might have, are the kinds of people I frankly would not want to associate with.***
If they don't believe it- I await some sort of reasonable explaination/response *from them* on the concerns on this matter. Whether they do or don't believe it- I don't know. I don't know them. What I DO know is what I read, and what I read comes across as AJ and others are taking it. Is that what they intend? I don't know that's why I stick around- waiting for a response from them actually addressing the issue and the concerns.
***AJ, on the other hand, is promoting in at least this one aspect a philosophy that has promoted unmentionable misery for hundreds of millions of human beings across the globe.***
AJ has served this country and to my (albeit limited) knowledge seems to me to be about as far from communist as a Pentecostal is from a Wiccan. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think I am. In either case- AJ isn't the topic of discussion or the issue here.
***And this is coming from a person who has a communist friend, though I think he is well-meaning and sincere, but misguided. He is under no illusions as to how I feel about communism, put it that way.***
;) To be frank, I'm not a fan either.
***Yet, when I point this out about AJ, one of his other followers, in typical rope-a-dope fashion, calls me a fascist or a Nazi and suggests I might be more at home at Aryan Nations.***
It wasn't that point they were replying about. And while I disagree with what was said- I think that two wrongs/personal snarks don't make a right. ;)
***Then, when I make an off-handed smart-ass remark of what I might do "IF" I were a Nazi, AJ can't wait to get on his blog and go on about how I have "threatened" one of his good buddies.***
Um... Whether you realize it or not, that comment came off VERY poorly. This IS a text based medium, so that is bound to happen, but given the emotional intensity of this topic- you might want to consider how that comment came off to someone who doesn't know you IRL or elsewhere... I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, trying to keep emotion out of this. (Will that always happen? I dunno, but I've had my coffee this morning, so... ;) )
***Oh, and I am a "Frosted Flake". Yeah, real cute, AJ.***
Come on now- it seems that we're all either 'Frosted Flakes' or 'Drewbies' because no one seems to recognize that some people are just here and in this because they have formed their own opinions. *gasp!*
***Go on over to my blog and click on the archives for September of 05, and tell me how much of a Nazi I read like.***
:) I just might do that when I get a chance. Let me be clear- I don't think you come off as a Nazi, nor as anti-semitic. I think you are allowing yourself (as most others here) to get emotionally involved in a heated subject and saying things that are coming across to those reading them as other than you intend or- perhaps *as* you intend in the heat and irritation of the moment.
***I'm talking about somebody else. I think he knows what I'm talking about too, and about who.***
Then you might do better to be a bit more clear and a bit more direct toward *him* as I have no idea what you are talking about or what that has to do what what WE are discussing. If you have an issue with AJ or another poster- take it up with AJ or that other poster.
***To tell you the truth, this isn't really that important to me. They believe what they believe, I believe what I believe.***
... You post an awful lot on the subject to say it 'isn't really that important' to you...
**If you will remember, in most posts on this blog, I usually try to encourage dialogue about the subject of the post. In this particular post, Gavin and Yvonne themselves opened the door in their last paragraph.
***In the meantime, I would like to point out that you all are apparently following the lead of, and taking your cues from, an individual who promotes and advocates a communist interpretation of the First Amendment.***
First of all- AJ is the person who drew my attention to the matter. That is all. That I disagree with the material as much as he does does NOT mean that I 'follow' him or 'take cues' from anyone but my own conscience. Is it that strange that numerous people would read something and come to similar conclusions/understandings?
**Not at all. I just think it's something you should take under consideration. Just to give you an example, I don't particularly care for the Iraq War, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be joining "Code Pink" anytime soon.
Sure, there are all kinds of people you might agree with on any given matter, but that doesn't mean you should align yourself with them. If you do, you at least owe it to yourself to question what their agenda might really be. It might not be so altruistic as you suppose.
***For one thing, if they do really believe what you imply, they are not going to have many followers, and what followers they might have, are the kinds of people I frankly would not want to associate with.***
If they don't believe it- I await some sort of reasonable explaination/response *from them* on the concerns on this matter. Whether they do or don't believe it- I don't know. I don't know them. What I DO know is what I read, and what I read comes across as AJ and others are taking it. Is that what they intend? I don't know that's why I stick around- waiting for a response from them actually addressing the issue and the concerns.
**That might be why YOU stick around. There are others who "stick around" that aren't going to be satisfied regardless of what they say or do.
Besides, they did somewhat address the issue in their "Intacta" post. They said there it would be beneficial to the children to remove the hymen. I disagreed with them, in my first comment on this blog. A lot of other people can't be content to disagree, they want to run them off the face of the earth.
If you just read between the lines, it's easy to see their perspective. They think children are harmed by society's typical sexual mores. Which, in some regards they have a point.
***AJ, on the other hand, is promoting in at least this one aspect a philosophy that has promoted unmentionable misery for hundreds of millions of human beings across the globe.***
AJ has served this country and to my (albeit limited) knowledge seems to me to be about as far from communist as a Pentecostal is from a Wiccan. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think I am. In either case- AJ isn't the topic of discussion or the issue here.
**Uh-well, actually, he is. He has made himself the topic, by taking on the mantle of the self-appointed Wiccan/Pagan "messiah" figure who is going to cleanse the temple from the influence of the evil Frosts.
You cannot take on that kind of persona and not expect that somewhere along the lines, people aren't going to call into question your ethics and agenda.
And a lot of people have served their country who had questionable morals and agendas. Boss Tweed, one of the most despicable figures in early New York history, one of the most corrupt of all New York City Tammany Hall bosses, began his career as a heroic firefighter. Doesn't prove a thing.
***Then, when I make an off-handed smart-ass remark of what I might do "IF" I were a Nazi, AJ can't wait to get on his blog and go on about how I have "threatened" one of his good buddies.***
Um... Whether you realize it or not, that comment came off VERY poorly.
**I didn't take kindly to being called a "piece of shit Nazi like Aryan Nations" either. I'm funny that way.
***I'm talking about somebody else. I think he knows what I'm talking about too, and about who.***
Then you might do better to be a bit more clear and a bit more direct toward *him* as I have no idea what you are talking about or what that has to do what what WE are discussing. If you have an issue with AJ or another poster- take it up with AJ or that other poster.
I wasn't meaning you. I am just pointing out that, evidently, AJ is not in the least concerned about who he might hurt, and is willing to drag anybody through the mud if it furthers his goal of harming the Frosts. That is something I would think is worth pointing out.
All i can say about Pagan Temples last post
He shoots He scores...GOAAALLL
Like in my case i come off as an asshole but you know what i could care less
What i care about are people and how they are treated, From day one when i read The Wild Hunt blog about Ajs little effigy trip i knew it was wrong .. Wrong treatment deserves justice.. So if a person such as Aj wants to make false and libelous accusations.. and hide behind the moniker of.. IM STATING BELIEF or CRITICAL COMMENTARY thats fine. But in the same vein his attempts to oust the Frosts from the Pagan community, his childish Frosted Flakes trip, are only going to keep me here in the forefront of things. And also have you noticed that anyone or anything not sympathetic to his cause are threateming his life or some such crap.. Seems paranoia WILL destroy ya
Shadowhawk-
Thank you for the kudos.
I also first heard about this, by the way, on Wild Hunt Blog. The comments section got so bad there, the spamming and trolling against the Frosts,that Jason Pizl-Waters (the blog owner), had to shut down his comments section.
I wish he hadn't done that, because that just encourages this kind of spamming and trolling the Frosts have been experiencing.
Like I told MOM-E, I usually like to stick to the topic of each post, but in this case, I just decided, well, if you can't beat them, beat them.
Hopefully, Gavin and Yvonne will post on other subjects I am sure you and me and others would be interesting in reading their take on. I might respectfully disagree with them from time to time, or I might agree, but from here on out, I am just going to stick to whatever that topic is. If the topic happens to be AJ, of course, I'll be glad to chime in with my two cents about that, as well, as in this post.
Hopefully, these people will realize that if they followed the same route, this blog could be a much more beneficial and educational, even enjoyable, experience than the constant trolling and witch warring.
I am hopeful that some of the more reasonable ones might at least try that approach. I am afraid, however, that there are too many of them that are just content to be AJ's little butt boy or girl.
I think there's one or two of them he uses as his own private little human gerbil, to tell you the truth.
(Prediction-because of that gerbil allusion, AJ will now post that I have made a "homophobic" statement).
Sorry Hunny but I got to reply here. The Constitution starts out with WE THE PEOPLE, not I the person. Isn't we a collective word.
"Sorry Hunny but I got to reply here. The Constitution starts out with WE THE PEOPLE, not I the person. Isn't we a collective word".
Yeah, it takes "We The People" to agree to the rights enumerated, which yes, pertain to the rights guaranteed to the people. If it was "I The Person" that would imply a rule by one specific dictator.
But it also pertains to individual liberties, granted to all American citizens, both as a group and as individuals.
Yes, I as an individual have freedom of the speech. I as an individual have freedom of religion.
Just like I as an individual have the right to know why I am being arrested if I ever am, and I have the right as an individual against unreasonable searches and seizures.
I as an individual have the right to an attorney as well, and if I am tried, I as an individual have the right to a speedy trial by a jury of my peers.
If I am convicted of a capitol offense, I also have the right as an individual to not be submitted to cruel and unusual punishment.
You communist and your fellow travellers are welcome to change all that to where it specifies that those rights apply only to society as a collective if you want.
I have an idea you aren't going to get anywhere near a majority, or even a significant portion of it, to go along with you.
My question is, why the hell would you want to? The fact that you seem to want that is more than proof enough for me that you are communists.
How in the hell can a right to a speedy trial by a jury of one's peers not be a right guaranteed an individual? How in the hell can that only be valid when applied to the "collective"?
The Bill of Rights are granted to individuals. If one of them are granted to individuals, then all of them are. Period.
"(Prediction-because of that gerbil allusion, AJ will now post that I have made a "homophobic" statement)."
You know, you and I may not agree on some topics but this gave me a good laugh I have to say!
I thought the story was with hamsters and cucumbers though.....
In all honesty I just wish the frosts would answer some of the questions asked. I think it would go a long way. It would for me any way. Instead of making feeble attempts to document Chapter 4 and at the very least acting like they stand by page 66, 67, and 99. It just really looks bad for them not to answer questions.
"Why did the Frosts write pages 66, 67, 95?"
"Why did they use the Roots of Civilization for documentation?"
“What has happened to Gavin’s children by his first marriage?” (just wondering myself has nothing to do with the book)
Just like the Hans Holzer book and the witch war with Herman Slater. Holzer claims he has papers to prove what he writes is true. Is there anything that anyone can give or is willing to give to prove it isn't?
Anyway I'm about done here. Nothing new, same crap, different day.
Oh BTW Wild Magic event has been great!!!! Made a lot of people aware of the book. Handed it to them to read if they wanted without any comment so they could make up their own minds freely.
I also first heard about this, by the way, on Wild Hunt Blog. The comments section got so bad there, the spamming and trolling against the Frosts,that Jason Pizl-Waters (the blog owner), had to shut down his comments section. -- The Pagan Temple
That is not in the least bit true.
A/ Jason Pitzl-Waters didn't specify the targets or aggressors.
B/ Jason didn't close the comments section, he merely switched it to the moderating option, where each posting was checked by him before appearing on The Wild Hunt's comments section.
Jason wrote, "Due to the increasingly personal and attacking nature of some posts on this thread, I have enabled moderation on all comments. This means that your comments may not appear immediately, so please don't re-submit them after posting them once.
I didn't want to intervene in this discussion since I feel its important one to have, but I feel my hand has been forced.
This conversation can continue, but please think (and re-read) before you post."
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/jasonpitzl/1808692917004447627/#232518
Link didn't appear properly.
http://www.haloscan.com/
comments/jasonpitzl/
1808692917004447627/
Cut and paste those three lines into your browser window, Jason's comment is at 07.12.07 - 9:54 am
Carol-
Okay, my mistake. The point is, there was a lot of spamming and trolling by people, a great many if not most of whom were slamming the Frosts, and by the way, it seemed to me at the time, anybody else that had the temerity to defend the Frosts. The anti-Frosts seemed to be the aggressors, to the best of my recollection.
I can admit when I'm wrong. Jason merely enabled comment moderation, instead of completely shutting comments down,so on that point you are correct. It has been a while since I read that post.
Rhiannon-Hans Holzer believes in ghosts too, and can "document" their existence. If his documentation skills are so beyond reproach, why is it his "documentation" in this regard hasn't been enshrined in the halls of science? After all, ghosts have been documented by Hans Holzer. Why aren't all these scientists trying to verify that documentation?
Isn't that what scientists do, test theories and retest them for the purposes of authentication, write peer review articles, etc?
Who is Hans Holzer? Hans Holzer is a man who probably believes Dark Shadows was the first reality TV show.
Who is Herman Slater? Never heard of him. Why should I believe him? Is it possible he's lying? Why doesn't Holzer present this documentation to public scrutiny? Is it possible that he knows that under the light of day, his proof would fade away like-well, like a ghost?
All this over three pages? What about the rest of the book? Like I said, I might not agree with them on a lot of things, but then again, I don't agree with lots of other things either.
I don't believe there was ever a "Burning Times" (as far as actual witches being burned), I don't believe there was ever a "matriarchal society", etc. I don't believe pagans of old cast circles and observed the Sabats and Esbats, at least not in nearly the same way we do today.
That doesn't mean I should run everybody else that believes in those things off the face of the earth. I have fun teasing them, though.
Like I said, maybe they just put this out there as "food for thought". It doesn't mean everybody has to think it's a good idea, or should try it. And like I said, people that would molest their kids don't need encouragement anyway.
Their branch of Wicca seems to revolve around fertility rites, if I understand correctly. Well, of course a lot of people involved in such rites are going to be married people with children, and like most people, they want their children to be able to participate in their religions.
Maybe they were trying to address ways in which this could be done, and simply didn't explain themselves too clearly or concisely. Maybe their point was, when a child reaches puberty, they are at the point of development when they should begin to be phased into adulthood. After all, physically at least, they are becoming adults. Perhaps their point was they should become adults in all ways, so their empotional and mental maturity would be at the same level as their physical maturity.
Don't take this, by the way, as an explanation for what they wrote. I don't know, I am just grasping for a possible explanation.
I don't agree with them to the point where this might seem on the surface to lead, if all this is right, but I still don't want to run them out of town on a rail, so to speak. And I do want to hear what they have to say about other subjects.
Greetings And Salutations Gavin And Yvonne Frost,
I just first wanted to respectfully announce my presence amongst you within this blog environment before proceeding in any serious discussion as it is the appropriate thing to do. Especially as common courtesy is so rare amongst elders within the craft these days.
So Mote It Be.
Archaeus Shadow - Witches Of Shadow Lore
http://www.shadow-lore.org
Again, my first response is to say Wow. And now my many “Huh / Wha” responses:
Herman Slater
Pagan Temple said – “Who is Herman Slater? Never heard of him.”
At first I thought this was a Huh / Wha moment. Pagan Temple has no idea who Herman Slater was? Then I realized Pagan Temple also totters back and forth between claiming to have never read the book in question and having much knowledge of it. I think Pagan Temple is playing games rather than having a serious conversation.
It is impossible to know the shallowest roots of the pagan movement within the United States of America without knowing who Herman Slater was.
On Jason’s Blog
Now this is a Huh / Wha moment. The only threats I saw in that blog at the time was those coming from a Frost supporter, Shadowhawk. He is also the only one that seemed to disappear immediately and later claim he had been banned from another blog. We tried to explain to him that he wasn’t banned, but he didn’t seem interested in a conversation where one can not randomly attack another person.
Food for Thought
Pagan Temple said – “Like I said, maybe they just put this out there as "food for thought".
The subtitle of the book was “How to Practice the Oldest Religion”, the Frosts state within current (2000) edition of the book just prior to the instructions that the chapter contains the original teachings of the Church and School of Wicca. Thus, during the course of 28 years, their story was that it was not “food for thought” and as far as I know, they haven’t said so much themselves to this very day 35 years later. So a huge Huh / Wha moment on this one.
Oh wait, maybe we are back to Pagan Temple saying that s/he has never read the thing and is just commenting on it for the hell out of it. Read the book folk.
On Communism
Now I am responsible for promoting a philosophy which has caused the suffering of millions and millions of people? Uh, you mean communism? Folk think I am a communist because I believe US Constitutional law protects both the individual as well as the larger community?
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.” - 1919 U.S. Supreme Court case of Schenck v. United States
The right of the moviegoers not to be panicked trumps the right of Freedom of Speech in the hypothetical situation.
Then there is the preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America, which, while not a legal document in and of itself, makes the intent of the documents framers rather clear:
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
No where in the preamble are the rights of the individual mentioned. Instead, the rights of the individual derive from the purposes found in the stated intent of the document. The framers of the Constitution of the United States of Americans felt that the rights spelled out in what is now called the “Bill of Rights” result in promoting a more perfect union, establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty.
Do I promote communism? Well, on a very small scale sure. My wife and I share equally the benefits of my work at the forge and her work with our children. We do not have separate bank accounts, although we are setting up separate accounts for specific purposes. Example: I will be in charge of the business account and she will be in charge of the household account. But that’s just a part of incorporating. As our business continues to grow, an LLC or the likes seems eminent.
But on a scale much larger than an immediate family, well I don’t think communism works all that well. It results in lazy people living in their mother’s basement and not doing a thing with their lives. Heck, I won’t even go on disability despite have a rather serious impairment. Meanwhile I see many pagan folk living off the system because they are “depressed” and can not hold a job despite the jobs they hold and are paid for under the table.
So there is the first Huh / Wha for this post.
All Pagans should be United on All Issues?
Uh, all I am saying is that we should agree that it is immoral and unethical to have sex with children. So here is another Huh / Wha moment.
Ritual of Caring – There is an event at this year’s International Real Witches Ball called “Sacrifice to Caring” which is being written by survivors of incest, molestation, and rape. But the term here is quoted as “ritual of caring”. If you are going to put quoted around something, please have a quote between the marks. Another Huh / Wha moment.
The 60s made them do it.
The 2000 edition of the book, sometimes said to have been published or printed in 1999, is rather clear that the forewords are what the Frosts would have changed if they had written the thing in January of 2000. The list of other publishing dates and publishers indicated that the Frosts self-published in 1995. So what is all this talk about the 60s? It looks like the thing was published without the forward disclaimer in 1995.
I am still trying to figure out how a book reportedly printed in 1999 has a statement within it which is dated January 2000. However, as there seems to be two distinctly different covers I wonder if the 2000 edition exists both with and without disclaimers. After all, it does say the forewords (where the disclaimers are found) were as if they were written in January of 2000, but the book says it was printed in 1999.
So this is another Huh / Wha moment.
Shadowhawk said – “One day soon this is all going to come to its final conclusion and i so pray that the Gods let me see the downfall of Aj Drew”
Wow that was rather dramatic. This is probably the greatest Huh / Wha moment since my last reading of this blog. Uh Shadowhawk, I am just a blogging blacksmith. I am not a king, a president, or anything else. Despite Deb’s weird reference to the “Pagan Nations”, all I can figure she is talking about is http://PaganNation.com which is a website / online community that I started.
So both Huh and Wha?
Round and round it goes. Where it stops, nobody knows. It seems like the only one anybody wants to talk about is me. I am boring. Seriously, I am a very boring person. For a living, I heat up metal and hit it with a hammer. I am poorly educated and usually smell bad. Most of my cloths are burnt or tattered. In short, I am just some guy with a blog. Oh sure, I wrote a few books a while ago but I don’t much think I will be doing so again soon as it takes my wife’s help just to keep up with my blog and emails due to a brain injury. Why is my opinion so desperately important in all of this?
The facts in the matter are as follows. Note I said facts. Not a belief, not an opinion, the following are facts. Hard cold facts which the Frosts can not sue me for saying.
1) The book was published in 1972 , was published and republished several times until it got to Gavin and Yvonne Frost first self publishing of the thing in 1995. Each time, it did not have the foreword that Frosts added in the 2000 edition (unless of course the Frosts somehow time traveled and knew in previous editions how they would feel in January of 2000)
2) Although none of these folk are lawyers, there is wide spread belief that the book is a pedophilic instructional.
Wikipedia.com - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_School_of_Wicca
Created by a collective of folk, not one person.
Witchvox.com - http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=words&id=9181
Note the footnotes on the sources to identify this book.
Controversial.com - http://www.controverscial.com/Gavin%20and%20Yvonne%20Frost.htm
Calls the book a literary suicide.
I simply agree & encourage other folk to read the book and make up their own minds. You can buy the thing right from the Frosts. Ask them to sign and date it for you.
http://www.wicca.org/godolphin/books1.html
This blog is rapidly turning into little more than humor. Would anybody like to discuss the book or why it is that the disclaimer seems to only be in there in the 2000 edition? Does anyone have the 1995 edition? Does anyone have the 2000 edition with the woman’s face on the cover? Does anyone have any of the other editions between the first and the last?
"Does anyone have the 2000 edition with the woman’s face on the cover?"
I have it. It has the exact same wording and pictures that Percival342 posted images of.
I don't recall seeing anyone here claiming your opinion is "desperately important," A. J.
You like to say "I am boring" or "I am just a blacksmith with a blog" but the truth is you constantly go on and on about what a great writer and leader and mover and shaker you are. Everyone knows you have a huge ego. Just admit it already.
Self-delusion is a sure path to self-destruction.
SUZ-
I don't recall seeing anyone here claiming your opinion is "desperately important," A. J.
You like to say "I am boring" or "I am just a blacksmith with a blog" but the truth is you constantly go on and on about what a great writer and leader and mover and shaker you are. Everyone knows you have a huge ego. Just admit it already.
Self-delusion is a sure path to self-destruction.
I think that what he means is that we shouldn't be questioning his motives. After all they are beyond reproach. Of course, he can't put it that way, so he portrays himself as just an everyday guy who's not really that important, or so he wants us to think. He supposedly just wants to show everybody the way to the truth.
If we question him or criticize him, then we are dodging or avoiding the issue, which is the Frosts of course, not him.
He has a right to criticize the Frosts and everybody that supports and/or defends them, but no one has a right to criticize him. How sad is that?
Temple,
Uh- actually it seems to me exactly the opposite. Frankly, from what I know of the man, he *actively ENCOURAGES* people to question and criticize him. He just seems to feel that if one is going to do so- that they should do it from a place of information. In other words- in this case- it seems to me that he's saying *read the book* before jumping into the debate. If, after you've read the book, you disagree with his position- peachy- but INFORM yourself FIRST.
I think the frustrating point for *many* folk here is that people are bickering over this issue, never having read the book for themselves. If one is going to speak intelligently on this issue, even to point fingers at AJ or anyone else who is in disagreement with the Frosts on this issue, it seems to me that they should know what the issue is before jumping into it, and that means *reading the book*.
I don't get this constant harping on people to "read the book!" as if, once the people who think A. J. Drew is a talentless hack with an ego problem read the book in question, they will then suddenly have the scales fall from their eyes and "see the light" and agree with him.
WE'VE READ IT. WE'RE OVER IT. WE DON'T THINK WORDS IN A BOOK ARE GOING TO INCITE ANYONE TO CHILD ABUSE WHO DOESN"T HAVE THAT PROPENSITY ALREADY. WE THINK ANYONE WHO DECIDES CHILD ABUSE IS A PART OF WICCA AS A RESULT OF READING THIS BOOK IS TOO STUPID AND GULLIBLE TO BE ALLOWED OUT IN PUBLIC WITHOUT THEIR KEEPER. WE THINK ANY TENDENCY TO TAKE THIS BOOK LITERALLY IS THE MARK OF AN EXTREMELY UNSOPHISTICATED AND FOOLISH INDIVIDUAL. WE THINK GAVIN AND YVONNE ARE FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS LIKE THE REST OF US, AND PERHAPS WENT A BIT FAR IN WRITING THIS MATERIAL FOR 'SHOCK VALUE'BACK IN THE DAY; BUT WE ALSO KNOW THEM TO BE HARMLESS OLD FOLKS WHO ENJOY BALLROOM DANCING.
Sorry for the shouting but some heads around here seem to be kind of thick. It is presumptuous and offensive for you to constantly accuse people of not being familiar with this literature just because they refuse to take it literally.
Now stop being so stupidly self-righteous and go do something that actually benefits the rest of the world.
Suz,
Wow- that was dramatic. Um, actually I was directing that clearly to PaganTemple who very specifically -stated- that he/she HAD NOT READ THE BOOK. (Wow- I can use caps too! Nifty!)
You know, I've been reading this blog for a while now and just wanted to listen and learn what I could. What I see is people defending something written that should never be in print. I've seen fellow Pagans try to tear the one down who wants that truth out in the open and gone from the book.
Why?
Why do you keep trying to tear the one down who tells the truth? It's been proven that molestation of children and adolescents causes lifelong, irreparable harm. This was known when the book was written. What kind of sick people would write something like that for shock value? If they claimed to drink each other's blood, then I might beleive it was for shock value and to sell books. If they're as intelligent as you all seem to think, then surely they knew better. I know why they wrote it, I'm under no illusions.
My mother is 65 years old. When she was a little girl, one of her schoolmate's stepfather tried to molest another girl visiting. That little girl went home and told her parents. The men of the neighborhood had a meeting and went to visit him, as a group. The molester was told, should he attempt anything like that again, he would be found floating in the river, dead. Now, that was how those things were handled back then. He never did try it again in that neighborhood, but he did move. It worked though, no other child had to suffer that kind of abuse except almost certainly his stepdaughter did. Back then, you didn't interfere with OTHER peoples children. I think it was very wrong of them not to help that little girl. Her life is ruined, she may be dead from suicide for all I know. Now, these adults knew that he most likely was harming his stepdaughter and kept silent. Why are you all wanting to keep silent?
Just forget it, pretend it's nothing.
My point is, is that 50-60 years ago, it was known as WRONG. I say Bullshit they didn't know it was wrong and it was the 70's. I grew up in the 70's and I was warned about people like that.
Let me tell you all something, if it has pushed ONE SINGLE PERSON 'over the edge' so to speak, and justify the molestation one ONE SINGLE child, then there you go. And many of you know, somewhere in that fogged out, denial perpetuating, projecting mind somewhere, the truth is the truth and it's as simple as that.
My suggestion to all of you is to read up on abusive behaviour. You'll only improve yourself and improve the lives of people you meet by learning about such people.
Willful stupidity and willful ignorance just make you look stupid to anyone with any common sense. I could care less if Drew has an ego the size of China, what he's doing is the right thing, none of the other shit you accuse him of matters. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for trying to sweep it under the rug and perpetuate child abuse.
Ok THIS IS to much for me...
I'm just a newbie here. All I wanted to learn was Wicca and to develop spiritually.
Looks like now the law is involved and the police in other states...uh...I don't want to get involved in this...
To the Owners of this forum/website...
Mr and Mrs. Frost,
I'd like to take lessons on Wicca but I don't want to participate in this ongoing feud. I'm sad that people even in Wicca do this to one another. I obviously don't know the stories here, just came online today to look for teachers...good grief, I stumbled onto a lot..lol...
Anyway, I like your website...and I know there are always two sides to every story, but to be Honest...I don't want to be involved in either side..I just want to learn Wicca...is there a way I can take lessons and not get into the ongoing fighting? I'd just like to become a Wiccan and develop my spirituality.
Plz contact me if you can..thanks.
Thanks so much..Raven.
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