Many of us in the real world find that the youtube political debates have been instructive. Which one, or how many, of those pushing, shoving political figures actually answered the tough questions--and which of them totally evaded the issue, trying to redirect the listener's attention to their own threadbare favorite cliches? We viewers are too often left with the feeling that the politicians didn't answer the question.
Mrs. Drew, we very much appreciate your recent avowal that your own three-year-old daughter has not had to get an injunction agains the individual calling himself A. J. Drew, now known and loved by many of us as the Brain-Damaged Dude (BDD). We had hoped that your response might squelch the rumors in the community; however, your answer--nice though it is --simply does not match the question.
It would surely be nice if you could squelch the strong rumor in the community that the BDD's older daughter got an injunction against him. Of course we would much prefer that the answer come from the BDD himself.
A search of court records from your area has turned up many, many cases in which an A. J. Drew figures as the defendant. This awkward fact occasions another question--in fact, two questions.
1. Is A. J. Drew the legal name of BDD? If not, can you give a waiting world his real legal name?
2. Are there other A. J. Drews living in your area? Do the many civil complaints against A. J. Drew apply to someone other than BDD?
We are not flaming you; we just want the record set straight and the rumors squelched.
Blessed be the community. Yours for truth, Gavin and Yvonne
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103 comments:
If i were a cow i would have squirted milk thru my nose.BDD.. now thats funny
Blessed Be Gavin and Yvonne
Nice way to turn the tables and the issue to something that does not pertain to the book and it’s writings there in.
On the other hand you do not answer any real questions yourselves. Unless someone were to pay you money for them and even then answers are not forth coming.
"Why did the Frosts write pages 66, 67, 95?"
"Why did they use the Roots of Civilization for documentation?"
“What has happened to Gavin’s children by his first marriage?” (just wondering myself has nothing to do with the book)
"Who is Alice Frost?"
"Is what Hans Holzer said in his book true and if not can you produce proof?"
"Is it wrong to have sex with children?" Is it wrong? Yes or no?
Now I am that “Brain-Damaged Dude (BDD)”, wow that is sensitive. What’s next on that frontier, I am that Limpy Gimpy Guy (LGG) due to the neuropathy in my feet?
Oh you zany Frosts! You got me there. Oh wait, I don’t have an older daughter. Just the one, who is 3 and a half years old. Now before you take another stab in the dark, Aimee doesn’t have an older daughter either. Feel free to move on to taking shots at my son now. Go ahead, ask if he is circumcised since you seem to be rather hung up on that one as a defense for the perversions you mention. BTW: So now your rumor is that the legal action from the non existent child is an injunction. Is the non-existing injunction in addition to the non-existing restraining order or is this a new non-existing legal action brought on by a non-existing daughter of mine?
It is rather clear that you are insistent on being the very source of this rumor as you just observed on September 24, 2007
“It would surely be nice if you could squelch the strong rumor in the community that the BDD's older daughter got an injunction against him. Of course we would much prefer that the answer come from the BDD himself.” – From this blog entry.
And yet I replied to your first attempt at starting the rumor on September 14, 2007 here in your blog that:
“As far as I know, I have only one daughter.” - http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com/2007/09/fanaticism-masks-doubt.html
Moving on to your next attempt at spreading a rumor / lie. You just said:
“A search of court records from your area has turned up many, many cases in which an A. J. Drew figures as the defendant.”
No it didn’t. Of course you left out the fact that I live in Columbus, OH (Franklin County). But as I have always been open about where I live, just about anyone can search the public records and discover there is nobody with the last name Drew and the initials A.J. who is a defendant. Not a one. There are a few A. Drews but they all have a middle initial and none are J. Not even an A.J. Drew with the drug offence that Deb R. claimed existed.
Feel free to keep looking, but there is no criminal record on me what so ever. Well, not in this country. Hey, it was just a little misunderstanding. I thought they were soldiers. I asked them to see their badges. They said Badges? Badges? We dun need no stinking badges.
I am sorry if you think I am taking this much less seriously than you think I should, after all you are certainly doing your very best to create some rather outrageous rumors. It’s just that I am a very, very boring person.
Gavin and Yvonne Frost said – “We are not flaming you; we just want the record set straight and the rumors squelched.”
Oh you zany Frosts, I guess that makes it all right now doesn’t it.
Seriously guys, do you all write your own material or do you pay someone to make you look this ridiculous?
Shadowhawk – Uh, guy. When I say something is funny by saying coffee squirted from my nose, I mean it was so funny, that I forgot to swallow before laughing and the laughter forced the coffee up from my mouth and out my nose. This is an occurrence that has happened to many a folk. Is that what you meant to say when you said that if you were a cow you would have squirted milk through your nose?
If I were a tree, I would make like a go away.
Personally your little Im a mere blacksmith trip belies the fact that you are indeed unscrupulous. You play games , but you dont play well. Now your making fun of Oberon Zell in your blog posts.. What the fuck makes you so special, all you have done is written a couple rehash wicca 101 books, and criticize people all during your short lived career, Why should the pagan community listen to a word you say. But oh wait im just Aj Drew a poor orphaned Blacksmith.. Give me a break
Aj Drew-
I'm going to prove to you right here and now what a fair minded person I am. I don't know if you have a daughter who put out a restraining order on you or not. Want to know a little secret? I don't give a rats ass if it's true or not, any more than I give a rats ass about what may or may not be in The Good Witches Bible.
I think it might come as a big shock to you,but I think most people probably pretty much feel the same way on both counts.
Wow! How's that for a Huh-Wha?
It seem to me that it should be an easy matter to prove whether or not the Frost's book has promoted and promotes pedophilia.
If a book doing this has been published for what, 30 or 40 years, you would think that there would be at least 100 kids who have been abused because of what is in the book. That would be a mere three children per year, and if the book is such a terrible threat, I would think it would have produced at least that many crimes.
And since some of the children would now be in their 20s and 30s, I'm sure you could find some who are willing to testify that they have been abused as described in the book.
Obviously, you can't use their names, but you should be able to supply reports that specifically name the Frost's book. Where is the evidence?
Comments from various reviewers of some of A. J. Drew's books on Amazon.com:
--it seemed so full of contempt, just plain arrogance & 'meaness'
--The book's title leads you to think that the book is geared towards Men. As you read through, you quickly realize that it would be better titled Creation's Covenant's View of Wicca.
--I have an extensive Wiccan library and have studied for many years, and this is the worst example of a "Wiccan" book that I have ever come across. It's not Wiccan, it's A.J. Drew's personal religion. It's aweful, buy something else.
--This book had nothing to do with the title. It was only a brain dump of the author along with his personal feelings and political views. It does nothing in the teaching of the religion. It is sad to think that someone would waste paper to put out something such as this, just so they can say they have a book in print. This gives a very bad light to the Wiccan religion and any other Pagan type religion. It makes others of this religion look as though they are of low intelligence and proves the author has little knowledge of the religion.
--I find that the arguments and attacks of other authors to be in poor tast and very tackless. This type of negativity only generate more negativity, something Mr Drew preaches but evidently does not practice.
--A.J. is to modern Paganism as Howard Stern is to radio. If you want to read an over inflated ego that loves to try and shock you by exaggerating and/or embellishing on unsupported or extremely dated information, then by all means read this man's books. If, on the other hand, you want something that is alot more factual and substantial, then stay away.
PT,
... You think that most people aren't concerned about the promotion of what many feel is child rape?
Why do you think that is? Are people so selfish that they just don't care? Do people not find the idea reprehensible? If it doesn't affect them directly they're too apathetic to get involved? Why do you think that most people wouldn't care about something like that?
MOM-E
Oh, I don't know. People are sick and tired of being emotionally manipulated by knee-jerk sensationalism, perhaps?
You know, I remember that quite a few years back, somewhere in Ohio, a young girl disappeared, and there was a massive search to find her. One of the fellows involved with the search proved very helpful in the hunt for the girl. Very helpful indeed.
He seemed to be very emotionally caught up and invested in the endeavor. And, when the body of the young girl was discovered, raped and dead, he was one of the more vocal in excoriating the evils of child abuse and sexual molestation and rape.
"Those damn child molesters should be hung up by their balls," might be a typical expression one such as he might be credited with.
Over the course of a very few days, fortunately, the girls rapist and murderer was finally found.
Want to guess who the perpetrator was?
Uhhhhhh-yeah!
Or, to use a quotation that might serve as a more than adequate paraphrase in regards to this controversy-
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
In other words, that's why I tend to not pay any attention to bullshit like this.
Looking at pages 66, 67 and 95 for these images,
http://www.freewebs.com
percival342/pg99.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com
percival342/pg65.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com
percival342/pg66.jpg
plus giving false documentation for these pages, do you or do you not believe this is an instructional for child sex acts? Yes or no?
"Why did the Frosts write pages 66, 67, 95?"
"Why did they use the Roots of Civilization for documentation?"
“What has happened to Gavin’s children by his first marriage?” (just wondering myself has nothing to do with the book)
"Who is Alice Frost?"
"Is what Hans Holzer said in his book true and if not can you produce proof?"
"Is it wrong to have sex with children?" Is it wrong? Yes or no?
my favorite Drew review on Amazon.com is this,
1 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
Just more rhetoric and misinformation, January 28, 1999
Reviewer: A reader
I have been a student and practitioner of Wicca for over 10 years now. Recently, I had the misfortune to read "Wicca For Men" by AJ Drew.Not only is the book packed full of incorrect information he jumps to conclusions without any foundation for his assertions. It is obvious to me that Mr.Drew knows very little to nothing about Wicca, Magic or Metaphysics. What he did not guess at, it seems that he just re-worded the same old thing from other works. I am surprised that any publisher would print such dribble and I expect to see it on the shelves of the 1/2 price book shops soon. As to the "tradition" he mentions, it appears to be made up on the spot to promote his dubviuos motives. In other words, pass this one by for a book that you can learn something from
Like it has been said rehash and hack. And this man thinks hes the saviour of wicca.. Now i really am laughing
PT said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
So by your logic anyone that speaks out strongly against an injustice must be doing so because they are guilty of perpetrating that injustice?
So Gandhi must have been starting wars.
Mother Theresa must have been starving children.
Princess Diana must have been burying land mines.
Martin Luther King Jr. must have been a KKK member.
I could go on and on. So come now PT did shadow give you one of his dumb pills?
Aimee – I always suspected those people of ill doings. Did you know that they all played euchre on the first Tuesday of the month? I say we outlaw euchre and the first Tuesday of the month. We cant let this evil go on. Ok, now I am probably guilty of starting wars, starving children, burying landmines, and supporting the KKK because I don’t like the Frosts book.
Has anyone else noted how silly this is getting? Why doesn’t anyone who supports the Frosts, including the Frosts themselves, want to answer questions about the instructions in their book which seem to rather clearly state that the path of Wiccan initiation is found in incest, molestation, and raping children?
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
Rhiannon – Ye, what you said.
Shadowhawk – Again with the focus on A.J. I am flattered. I don’t understand why you think that people expressing their concerns about the apparent pedophilic instructions in Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s book; The Good Witches Bible.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
But as you seem to insist on talking about me here in this blog, yep I think Oberon Zell is funny. I have thought so ever since the whole mutilating a goat to make a unicorn, sell the unicorn, and go on a mermaid hunt bit. But my post was in response to his organization making some rather nasty statements about me in an email posted at:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/24/caw-ariel-monserrat/
Although he has a long and distinguished history of making a fool of himself, the latest thing I commented on was the information in the news about how the man is the very inspiration for the Harry Potter series. He is even photographed in his Dumbledore outfit, complete with floppy pointy wizard hat.
“[Oberon Zell is]regarded as the inspiration for the fictional professor in the Harry Potter series.”
From an Interview with ABC Sydney, Australia - http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/stories/s1551407.htm
Poor Orphaned Blacksmith? What are you talking about? What I am saying is that my profession is as a blacksmith. I have no education to speak of. Wrote a couple of books, but do not much write any more due to a brain injury. The only reason I even stand out is because you and a tiny handful of people who defend the Frosts seem to focus your every thought on me. Hell, thanks to you I am becoming famous. So when I say I don’t understand your focus, it is not an oh poor me thing. It is a, huh thing. I don’t understand why it is that you and your kind seem to think I am so very important. All I am is a blogging blacksmith, no empire to topple (as you indicated elsewhere), no huge organization with thousands of followers, nothing to really crumble in the end as you have implied is eminent. Nothing that dramatic. People will just stop reading my blog. I think I can withstand that torture.
Pagan Temple – Ok, nobody cares about the Frosts book and what looks like the pedophilic instructions found within that book. Nobody cares that they claim that they founded the Wiccan religion. Nobody cares that the statement thus claims Wicca was founded in pedophilic rituals. I think you are wrong.
Edward Anderson – Again with the focus on A.J. Drew Now book reviews. I am ever so confused why it is that you seem to think this is a popularity contest. It’s really very simple, I believe the Frosts have included pedophilic instructions in their book on Wicca. I am Wiccan and do not like the implication that my religion is founded on incest, molestation, and rape.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
Yep, my books often meet with criticism. They also meet with good reviews. I find it is about a fifty fifty split and enjoy that. It means I am saying something that causes a person to think. I do think it is funny that Shadowhawk claims my books are all rehashed Wicca 101 and your reviews mostly indicate that what I have written is wildly different than any other take on Wicca. It is funny, like most of the conversations with Frost supporters there is absolutely no agreement other than how big and evil I am.
Pagan Temple – Ah, another insinuation that I am doing the things in the Frosts book to cover my own guilt for doing similar things. Guy, this is getting as old as the Frost’s constant accusations of restraining orders and bla bla bla. I might have to resort to quotes from my daughter. I am rubber. You are glue… Could we perhaps upscale the conversation. Maybe shoot for 6th grade.
Ahh Aj ever the consumate dodge as to whats really going on.
Lets see what MZWYNDI at Livejournal.com has to say
*groan*
mzwyndi
2007-08-14 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Speaking as a local to AJ Drew, I'd like to take this opportunity to say a few things.
First, please don't anyone judge the Columbus, Ohio area by this man. AJ is a nice enough person IRL, but he's fallen prey to something I have always lovingly called "the Crowley effect". Sometimes, he believes his own PR. It happens to the best of us, if we're not vigilant. The strong personality needed to be effective as a magical practitioner, a priest, or any of a dozen other roles we might take... is also terribly susceptible to overcompensation, egotistical thinking, and a level of bombast that is truly unparalleled. The Frosts seem to have fallen prey to it in the early days, and later risen above it. AJ might, too. If you cannot be an example to others, you can always serve as a warning. This is true of the Frosts, this is true of the Drew. Frankly, this whole thing makes me say, "Pot, my dear, have you met my old friend Kettle?"
It's funny to me. I see AJ through the lens of years of casual acquaintance. Which is to say, I don't take him seriously. I know he's performing mental gymnastics, playing 'what if' games with himself, and stimulating conversation about ethics and living the path. Hel, I know him from his 'hey baybee, wanna get in the hottub' days, before he married. I know he likes the attention, I know he has strong opinions, and I know he feels like a BNP when he engages a well-known author and gets a response. Heck, he did this to Raymond Buckland a few years ago over something else, made a BFD about the "war" between them, and then a BIGGER FD when they "patched up their differences".
And so, I mostly ignore him. When he, probably inadvertently, got himself involved in the local 'store wars' back in the early 90's, I (and several other good folk I know) just... stopped giving him or his competitor any business. Lots of people didn't, though, and his sales were probably raised by the people who were Making A Statement by buying candles from him. It's little wonder he repeated the behavior; even if it's not expressly for publicity, he certainly gets something out of all the attention, all the fawning about how brilliant he is, and all the intellectual discussion it stimulates. It may not be about SALES, but it's certainly about TRAFFIC.
Secondly, I'd like to say that burning people in effigy is BAD MAGIC. And I don't mean "evil", so don't even take me down that road. I mean "sloppy". Set aside your logical arguments about the ridiculous excuses for why to do this and the ethical debate for just a second and really LOOK at the proposed ritual. ARE YOU HIGH?!? No matter what your stance on the possible philosophical interpretations of the out-of-date material -- we are, at the brass tacks, talking about performing a large-scale magical attack on the people whose techniques you're using. Hey, that's a good idea, AJ. What are you going to do for an encore? Guilt spells against Isaac Bonewitz? Justice spells against Starhawk? Oooh, I know. How about if you attack the matriarchy using some of Z. Budapest's work?!? That he thought it was interesting to consider is bad enough -- but to publicize something like that? It's laughable. All those young fools, so excited about using magic to better the world, are tying an enormous millstone around their own magical necks. (Although there is the argument that that will keep them busy until they grow up enough magically to know why it was a dumb idea.)
And I'd like to take yet another opportunity to say that the best thing anyone could do with idiots is to walk away. Don't participate. Just like trolls, don't feed the frenzy. If you want to come to Ohio, there are other, better, less idiotic things to do and see here.
(Reply to this)(Thread)
Kinda states a nice point i think
Over the course of a very few days, fortunately, the girls rapist and murderer was finally found.
Want to guess who the perpetrator was?
Uhhhhhh-yeah!
Don't tell me, let me guess -- AJ? [/joke]
That's strange, it's also very like Gavin's assisting the FBI's investigation of his student John Todd (someone he trusted enough to give a Church and School of Wicca charter) for sexual abuse of minors.
Did the FBI know that Todd's teachers had written in one of their primary texts that one of the practices of their religion was to initiate children into the Church of Wicca with ritual sex?
Speaking of evasion, I posted a number of questions about material the Frosts have written and their claimed credentials in yesterday's blog post, the "Quotable Quotes" post. I see that they have not yet been addressed.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7357027421761048480&postID=3472588109838270069
Everyone here writes so nicely. But I still have a question that no one is answering:
WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE FROST'S WRITINGS?
Why can't Mr. Drew or his supporters produce a hundred?
Or ten?
Or one?
Without any victims there is no crime and one is left wondering the REAL reason Mr. Drew is so intent on denouncing the Frosts. Perhaps it's because of his own failure to achieve the notoriety of the Frosts?
And speaking of crimes, cybersquating is a crime. And yet, Mr. Drew has committed this crime more than once.
PT,
You sound like one of those folk who gripes and complains about political issues that they have never researched and who never bothers to get out and vote. (Not saying you do or don't on *that* issue- but on this one- you're acting like people who do that.)
Sorry, but your thoughts don't carry much weight until you read the thing for yourself.
"Knee jerk sensationalism"? Read it and let me know your real reaction to what you read. Then we can talk. I find it interesting that AJ and others are telling people to read it- but those defending the Frosts are either refusing to discuss the *content* or are maintaining they have never and/or will never read the book...
Shadow,
Mzwyndi is grossly misinformed regarding the nature of the ritual. Like many people. :)
Ed,
Does it matter? IMO it doesn't matter whether there were one or 100 or even NO victims of child rape based on these teachings. I'd like to hope the number were zero. However- two points need to be made here. The first point being, just because no one is speaking up and saying 'I am a victim of the teachings of the Frosts book' doesn't mean they don't exist, whether they were legitimately a part of the Frosts organization or not. Not saying they DO exist- just saying lack of someone standing there saying 'Look at me- here I am- I am a victim' doesn't mean that there aren't any.
Second point- whether there are or aren't any victims related to this text IMO doesn't matter. The documentation is there and can be easily used TO victimize.
Throwing in a third point for consideration- if the Frosts are sincerely against the idea and practice of child rape, I would think that they would be vocally opposing the interpretation of their work and the idea that it can be used to facilitate it. Why are we not hearing that from them?
You have only to look at the Roman Catholic church to see how long people can take to deal with their abuse as children and be willing to confront the leadership and power of their church.
And that's with sufficient knowledge at this point that they aren't the only ones, that it's a problem that went on for decades without most people knowing, and with a lot of sources of support that weren't there years ago when the abuse happened.
If children were sexually abused by members of the Church of Wicca who followed the manual of how to practice the religion that was written by the founders, they face the added issue of incest. Twelve year olds wouldn't have gotten involved in a Frost coven on their own, their parents would have at the very least arranged for their sexual abuse by coven members, and perhaps practiced the incestuous "help" recommended by the Frosts before that.
No one has produced any quotes from the Frosts that indicate any concern that childhood abuse has lasting effects upon the children, other than Yvonne's sneering dismissal to Ellen Evert Hopman: "People are saying they can't live their adult life because they had a traumatic experience. Some adult did them a 'bad' against their will."
Edward, perhaps you would walk us through the demographics and logic you used to come up with your figures of hypothetical victims? Or did you pluck them from thin air?
“Furthermore, we wish to strongly emphasize that child molestation or sexual conduct between adults and minors has never been condoned by our Church. It is also not condoned by sincere adherents of Wiccan (Witchcraft) traditions which are also Pagan religions.”
James Assad
6th Circle Scion Secretary of the Board
Church of All Worlds
In another thread, Pagan Temple attacked CUUPS for creating a similiar statement. I am curious to know, do you think lowly about CAW for this statement?
First off, I want to make something abundantly clear. I NEVER accused AJ Drew of anything at all, including molestation or murder.
I was just pointing out that sometimes some of the worse people in the world latch onto movements like this in order to hide their true personas, and they tend to be the most vociferous advocates.
Therefore, when I hear or read people going on and on about not only this subject, but any others, I have to wonder what their agendas are.
It doesn't necessarily mean they are engaging in such an offense-though in some cases they might well be-it could be becasue they are dealing with their own traumatic issues of abuse they have buried, or perhaps they are at the surface and they are determined to exact some kind of retribution on any person that comes within their grasp or attracts their notice.
Or, maybe they are just after power and control? Maybe they just want to make a name for themselves, and know they can do this by engaging in diatribes on what amounts to a hot button issue that is guaranteed to illicit a knee jerk response?
By the way, I'm not a big fan of Gandhi. I think his philosophy would inevitably lead to more suffering than would ordinarily occur if taken to it's logical extreme. Sometimes non-violence and peaceful reistance is appropriate. Sometimes, it is not. Probably in most cases,it is not.
By the way, he argued the Jews should not have resisted Hitler's attempts to destroy them, but should have followed his, Gandhi's, example.
Quite a guy, huh? I was called a Nazi, what about him?
Princess Diana? A whore with a seldom vacant vagina. Admitted marrying Prince Charles for no reason other than his status. Who gives a shit what she thinks about land mines? If an invading force entered my property, the last thing I would worry about would be what she would think about the little traps I'd have set for them, or even if their children got blown up or poisoned by them at some later date. Tough shit.
Mother Theresa? Had the best health care available for herself while her charges got very little, while she associated with the most brutal third world thugs and dictators of her time-the very people responsible for a great lot of, if not most of, the world's misery.
A proponent of the common catholic teaching fallacy that suffering is holy and "good for the soul."
I do respect Doctor King for his accomplishments in the area of civil rights, but I am afraid that even he was far from perfect, to the extent that he is generally portrayed. Once you get past civil rights, I have an idea he'd have been too far "out there" for my tastes.
So, there are no gods or saints here. Yes, in some cases they might have made some valuable contributions. Yes, in other cases, they might have made matters worse in some regards.
The point is, they were not so great that people should follow them blindly. They would probably be the first persons to tell you that. If they were really the kind of people they portrayed themselves to be, they might have even believed it when they said it.
What they all had in common was a pie-in-the-sky attitude towards what life should or should not be, and the feeling they were ordained from on high.
And, maybe to a point they were. But they weren't perfect. Neither is AJ Drew, who strikes me more and more as an obsessed individual. Obsession is never good.
Oh, and AJ-I don't give a shit about the statements that CUUPS makes. I don't care what statement CAW makes. My problem is with the insinuation that any one group speaks for all pagans. They do not.
If they are speaking just for their own group, that's all well and good. But that's as far as it goes. You seemed to be implying that they were some kind of umbrella authority and the final word on anything any Pagan should believe, not only on this but by extension on any other matter.
Well, that's kind of overreaching, isn't it?
Like I said before, and I'll say it again, most of us don't need to be told that it's wrong to molest our children, just like most of us don't need to be told it's wrong to steal or commit murder.
We are not a mere faith based religion that accepts everything we are told, and worships blindly, and has to adopt and accept maxims for our own good.
We are, or are supposed to be, a group of people that can think for ourselves, and who ideally are constantly striving for inner growth and self improvement. We don't need to be commanded "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not". We generally know the difference in right and wrong.
I would submit to you, AJ Drew, that this would apply to the vast majority of us. For one group to deign to speak for us all-which is what you seemed at the time to be suggesting-is insulting.
It also looks bad, to think that some group needs to issue a public statement to the effect-
"Now, us Wiccans don't believe in molesting our children, folks, we just thought we'd point that out with this here official statement.
"Oh, and we also love Christians. We really, really do. Why, some of us even worship Jesus Christ. We're working on the ones that don't, just to keep things calm and peaceful and so we can all be 'united'
"Give us time and we'll all be one big, happy, loving family. After all, if we could see God, he'd probably look like a great big giant smiley face in the sky, looking down on all of us, blowing us kisses and wanting to gather us all up in one great big group hug."
"And if somebody don't agree with us, on this or anything, well, we'll just call them bigots, and nazis, or molesters, or if that don't apply, well then they must be some other kind of scoundrel."
You're an obsessed individual, AJ. If you were not, then you would return to writing. You have enough talent, you could write books pertaining to Wicca or whatever branch of Pagan you are, based on your work as a blacksmith. It would be something different and original.
Instead of that, you seem determined to stay on this ill-advised path.
Of course, I guess you could make the point that talent without imagination is worse than useless.
You know since Aj is proactive in his crusade against the Frosts im going to get Proactive in mine against Aj..Recently i started an internet radio station. Starting on tonights show ill begin to delve into the reasons why Aj is doing this..ALSO starting next week ill be doing a 2 part interview with people who have known the Frosts far longer than i ,,We are going to hear from them the other side of the coin. To acess my station go to www.shoutcast.com and download the winamp player version 5.. once installed go to media player in preferences look for the shout cast radio tab and type in Pure Pagan Radio.. then listen.. my show runs from 7-11pm central standard time. Its time someone stood up for whats really the right thing, and Ajs little sacrifice at samhain, regardless of how he words it is wrong. this message is going to be heard.
Mom-E said...
"Does it matter? IMO it doesn't matter whether there were one or 100 or even NO victims of child rape based on these teachings. I'd like to hope the number were zero. However- two points need to be made here. The first point being, just because no one is speaking up and saying 'I am a victim of the teachings of the Frosts book' doesn't mean they don't exist, whether they were legitimately a part of the Frosts organization or not. Not saying they DO exist- just saying lack of someone standing there saying 'Look at me- here I am- I am a victim' doesn't mean that there aren't any."
I agree! But with their book being in print for over 30 years, if anyone had been abused as a result, you'd think that at least one or two people would say so. I mean, the Catholic Church had hundreds of millions of dollars to keep people quiet, and people still spoke up. The Mafia would kill people who revealed their secrets, and people still spoke up. Are you really claiming that the Frosts have more power than the Catholic Church and the Mafia combined? I don't think they do.
I hope the number is zero, also! But your claim that just because no real victims have ever appeared doesn't mean they aren't there is like saying just because we've never seen little green people on the Moon doesn't mean they're not there.
The law and reason isn't based on what can't be proven, it's based on what can. And unless somebody can show that they have been harmed then the book is legally and reasonably harmless.
"Second point- whether there are or aren't any victims related to this text IMO doesn't matter. The documentation is there and can be easily used TO victimize."
So by that definition you'd also ban the book Lolita, by Nabokov. You'd also ban the two films made of the book and the song "Don't Stand So Close to Me" by the Police because it mentions that book. You'd also ban the movie "Taxi Driver" because of the child prostitute.
Believe it or not, there was child abuse long before the Frosts and, I regret to say, there will be child abuse long after you, I, and the Frosts are gone. There was child abuse before there were books, and no child abuser ever required a book to commit horrible, despicable, acts.
Where does your desire to ban these things end? And what about the people who want to ban what you like? "Wicca and Witchcraft, why, that's Satan worship and any writings on it must be banned. You must ban all those Harry Potter books, too!"
Respectfully, Mom-E, you're not just in favor of banning the Frosts. What you're proposing is no different that what fundamentalist Moslems and Christians do. You're trying to ban thoughts, and that's never been possible.
"Throwing in a third point for consideration- if the Frosts are sincerely against the idea and practice of child rape, I would think that they would be vocally opposing the interpretation of their work and the idea that it can be used to facilitate it. Why are we not hearing that from them?"
I believe that they have written such, at least I've seen it. Repeatedly.
But there are some people who are two busy making accusations without proof of any crime, sort of like was done in the Witch trials in Salem in the 17th century and by the House Committee on Un-American Activities in the 20th century. It was well described in Arthur Miller's play, "The Crucible."
Produce the victims and I'll not just stand at your side, I'll stand in front of you and shout louder. But right now, you're walking arm in arm with the Cotton Mathers and Mahmoud Ahmadinejads of the world.
Mr. Drew wrote, "... I am ever so confused why it is that you seem to think this is a popularity contest. It’s really very simple, I believe the Frosts have included pedophilic instructions in their book on Wicca. I am Wiccan and do not like the implication that my religion is founded on incest, molestation, and rape."
The book reviews show that people see you and your books as not representative of Paganism. I find it interesting that you claim, here, that you are Wiccan whereas I have seen you claim elsewhere that you are not a Wiccan.
You claim that what the Frosts wrote implied that your religion (Wicca or something else? Which is it?) "is founded on incest, molestation, and rape." Their book has been around for 30+ years. Why don't you produce a mere 10 people who were abused as a direct result of someone following what was written by the Frosts? If you can't do that you should denounce them for being ineffective, not promoting child abuse.
By the way, what does "your religion" have to say about the illegal practice of cybersquatting?
Edward,
I don't know about you, but I see a great difference between a work of fiction and one of non-fiction. The 'Good Witch's Bible' is supposedly an instructional for 'how to practice the oldest religion'. I think that quite a bit different than the movie 'Taxi' or any form of the literary 'Lolita'- don't you?
I don't have any desire to ban books, Ed. I DO have the desire to help draw attention to this specific book that I feel is an open doorway for abuses that should not be tolerated by any rational or respectable persons. Do I want the book banned? Frankly I don't care. I want people to KNOW about it. I want booksellers alerted to the content so that they can choose not to carry it. I want event hosts alerted to what is in it so that its authors are not hosted at events until or unless some reasonable response is made regarding the issue. Banned? If it is legitimately protected speech, then no- I do not want it banned. If it is looked at and judged by the laws of our land to be UNprotected speech- then I expect it to be dealt with as such. I am not a judge on these matters so what I want is for people to *be informed*.
What I and others like me are doing is not accusing without proof- what we are doing is stating very plainly that we disagree with what was written- which is very clearly and easily proven. Unless one is debating that the Frosts did not write the book in question? What is being done is no different than the outcry against any public figure when they make a grave error in judgement. It's called an awareness campaign coupled with a boycott.
Have you read the book in question, Ed? What is your opinion on the contents?
My Radio show is now on the Air.. if your capable to listen Aj .. listen and see what im telling the world about you
Shadowhawk,
A.J. is at work, something I'm sure that you know nothing about. By telling the world do you mean your 5 unemployed friends that you play Magick The Gathering with, who are sitting in your Mom's basement with you listening?
Aimee you dont know me, you never have and never will. And as far as Aj working ,like i care. Lady you are a piece of work, but then being a bitch is right up your alley
Warren Jeffs made a 14 year old virgin marry one of his supporters. Jeffs was convicted today of being an accomplice to rape, which may put him in an orange jumpsuit for 5 years to life.
So we want to talk book reviews do we?????
Here are some JUST on the Witches Bible alone!
Amazon.com
this book violates the goddess, September 6, 2007
By Lawrence Boyer "Ourania Star-Crystal" (Anaheim, CA USA) - See all my reviews
perhaps everyone has forgotten persephone and demeter? this book is the mouthpiece of hades....regardless of what "value" one might find in seemingly unrelated passages....the sexual violation and initiation are the real purpose for the entire volume...the rest is camouflage...read the myth of persephone, if you are not familiar with it. ask yourself if you believe innocent children should be sacrificed to hades...and if you are okay with that...then go right ahead and buy this book...practitioners of the dark arts can never return to the light. may the lord and lady have mercy on your souls.
my real rating of this item is -5 to infinity
Ourania Crystal-Star
By Shelby L. Gangloff (Bradford, PA United States) - See all my reviews
If for no other reason, anyone claiming to be Pagan or Wiccan should read this book from cover to cover, not just Chapter Four, because there's a lot more in there to object to than the initiation rituals.
There is some good information in this book, but it's buried under a lot of downright weird or outdated stuff. For example, they advocate that you meditate daily at the same time to get into a routine. Nothing wrong with that, right? Nope, didn't think so. They also write that spells should be in a language you know, using words and names you know so that your spells are effective. Nothing wrong with that, either.
But, throughout the book, they seem to be trying to justify their religious teachings by telling us how similar their religion is to some Christian practices, both modern and ancient. They even use a modified version of Christian prayers (specifically, The Lord's Prayer) as part of the liturgy, because they say that its familiar form will attract recently deceased souls to their circle to help them. Um... Why would I want to attract souls whose most recent incarnation was Christian to a Pagan circle? They also go on to say that if you want to have any hope of reaching or "pleasing" a higher-level spirit guide, you'd have to learn Hebrew or Chaldean. Huh? Oookay, if they're really that advanced spiritually, don't you think that the language barrier would have been overcome a long time ago?
They also think that rings and a belt for your robe will prevent you from sending energy or receiving psychic messages. Um, if tying a knot in a piece of cloth that just happens to go around your waist is interfering with your energy working, just give up now, because it's hopeless. I'm not saying that metal won't affect the energy around it, because it will, but if your wedding band is getting in your way, or that special necklace you wear for ritual is blocking energy flow, donate your pagan books to the library and sell your ritual items on eBay, because you'll never cut it.
Now, about "The Chapter". A lot of time has passed since 1972, and Chapter Four is now prefaced with a warning about the social and moral climate of the day. To wit, they recommend that no one under the age of 18 should be initiated as they describe because of possible legal repercussions. This doesn't change the fact of what they wrote, but it does show that people can learn and change over time.
I have met the Frosts. They're OK as people, but I would never step into a ritual circle with them. They're also history. In every sense of the word. They're history in the sense that they were there as Wicca was taking shape, so, just like you can glean nuggets of wisdom from your racist grandpa if you choose to overlook his off-color jokes, so too can you glean some knowledge from reading this book, as long as you don't swallow their teachings whole. They're also history in the sense that most people who call themselves Wiccan today don't practice anything like what's described in this book, which I personally think is a good thing.
Read the whole book cover to cover, then sell it, donate it, or just let it collect dust on your shelf until you need a good laugh.
An Unfortunate Mistake, July 4, 2007
By S. parker "Ian Corrigan" (Madison, Ohio United States) - See all my reviews
When this book came out in the early 70s, it was considered abject nonsense by the few folks who had any actual knowledge of Wicca in those days. The Frosts came out of nowhere, appropriating the term 'Wicca' for their own version of what religious witchcraft might be. Their synthesis bore almost no resemblance to the traditions of Wicca, either in ritual or theology, and certainly not in the grotesque suggestions about the sexual upbringing of children. It was a different age in those days, as 'swinging' emerged as a lifestyle and many folks hoped for a real revolution in sexual mores - too bad the Frosts chose to add their wacky ideas to something that they chose to call 'Wicca'.
This book was an embarrasment in 1972, and it's an embarrasment now. It should be ignored by anyone interested in learning witchcraft or wicca.
The book that brings down the name of Wicca, November 21, 2006
By E. Phythian "AmberRaven" (UK) - See all my reviews
This 'book' is a defamation of basic human instincts and morals, not to mention a complete and utter misrepresentation of REAL Wicca. Raymond Buckland travelled to the US in 1963 and brought Wicca with him as he had been taught by Gardner. The Frosts design the own 'Tradition', changing most of the rituals, including initiation and also inventing these deplorable 'coming of age' rites where under age children are encouraged to have sex with adults, even their own family members.
Unfortunately, petitioning for a ban of this book will do nothing but increase it's notoriety and make people want it more. Fortunately enough, most bookshops and most places online refuse to sell it. Silver Ravenwolf maybe considered fluffy and biased, but she is a saint compared to this tripe!
If you want to know REAL Wicca, read anything by Cunningham or Buckland, or even study Gardner's take on it, though he does like compulsory naked coven members! Most covens these days have that as optional.
Owning a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum is more preferrable than owning this!
Filth, Garbage and sexual perversion., May 20, 2006
By K. D. Spring "Demonofwater" (Baton Rouge, La. United States) - See all my reviews
True Witchs would NEVER practice any of the degeneracy in this outhouse standby.
This filth is not Witchcraft or Wicca but alot closer to devil worship.
People who rape or molest children in any way shape or form should be stripped, beaten and then burned alive, not true Witchs.
These twisted sick perverts should be punished with extreme prejudice for advocating this swill.
Buy the Farrars Witchs Bible, or Bucklands complete Book Of WitchCraft or anything by Scott Cunningham but dont ever by anything which promotes more pain and anguish in poor little childrens lives, namely this book and anything by the frost's.
Burn this piece of crap, May 11, 2006
By R. Barnard (Agawam, MA) - See all my reviews
I have read bits and pieces of this book and it horrified me. Yes, there is a little bit of decent information, but that same information can be found in other books that do not advocate child molestation.
As for Baloney Buster's claims, no the Frosts were not the pioneers of Wicca in America. That distinction belongs to Raymond Buckland who brought it over from England LONG before the Frosts published this piece of tripe.
THIS IS NOT REAL WICCA! THIS IS A PERVERSION OF A BEAUTIFUL RELIGION THAT DOES NOT ADVOCATE HARMING CHILDREN OR ANY OTHER INNOCENT CREATURE!
This book should be added to the adult fiction section if sold at all!, July 26, 2005
By Witchy Mama (CA USA) - See all my reviews
This is Book (I use the word 'book' lightly) is not somthing I would hope that anyone looking for info on Wicca or Witchcraft would read. It gives us a bad name. I HAVE NEVER FOUND INFO LIKE THIS BEFOR. And I hope I never do agen. Shure all religons have there bad seeds but these people...They go beyond, I dont know how this book could be out there w/ out sending the wrighters to jail.
Not just disturbing, despicable!, August 28, 2004
By Magpie Brightly (Oklahoma) - See all my reviews
If I could give this book less than one star I would, if I could give it negative stars I would. I had heard about the controversy surrounding this text and not being a mindless drone I decided to read for myself and come to my own conclusions. All I can say is that these people are sick and they have no place representing the pagan community. They advocate child molestation and incest. I cringe when I think of what may have already been carried out under their tutelage since this book has been in publication so long. I am so upset I don't know what else to say. Except that I will not be buying any books by them or published by their publishers until their books are removed from publication.
This book advocates child molestation , July 26, 2004
By Nikki D. (Ocala, FL, USA) - See all my reviews
I'm all for free speech but this book contains material that is beyond comprehension including a ritual where the Frosts advise a father of a 12 year old girl to help create a wooden phallus, show her how to use it then offer his 12 year old child to the High Priest of the coven for sexual intercourse. There is no DEFENSE to sick, twisted material such as this. DO NOT BUY THIS BOOK! These people should be locked up.
Of Historical Value, April 6, 2004
By Jennifer R. Schumaker (Bethlehem, PA United States) - See all my reviews
I purchased this book while I was on the hunt for any reference written by someone claiming to be Wiccan that advocated any kind of sexual activity involving a minor. A woman had posted a question on my message board as to how "we" could advocate this practice. My simple answer was "we don't!," but it lead me to wonder where such an idea might originate. This is pretty much it. Aside from (as one reviewer has already metioned) being an advertisement for their school, this reads like some crappy soft-porn fiction novel. If that turns you on, then by all means this is for you. If you are new to Wicca I absolutely do not recommend this book as it doesn't even come close to approximating what the majority of modern Wiccans believe or practice in their religion. Please try something by Scott Cunningham instead.
On the other hand, these people are part of the history of Wicca in the US (no matter how small), and this book will be read by people other than Wiccans. If you are maturing on the path and want to see what all the fuss is about this book is a great "head shaker," that is to say, it'll leave you constantly wondering whether anyone ever even tried to run a coven like this.
Aberration, February 7, 2003
By Don Kemball (Richmond Hill, Ontario Canada) - See all my reviews
Rarely does one book spark such violent opposition. This is one of the most misguided works I have come across. It has nothing to do with any form of Wicca I have come across, and serves only to malign serious followers of the religion. From blatantly incorrect to sick and twisted, the Frosts seem to have created a work of fiction here.
Sick!, November 23, 2002
By Yvonne (Ohio) - See all my reviews
I thought this book was the most disturbing book I've ever read. I'm ashamed to own it. The teachings within are sick and twisted. It has nothing to do with Wicca. It has everything to do with perversion and is an insult to Wiccan spirituality!
Do not bother, January 16, 2002
By Heather Hamilton (Weekawken, NJ United States) - See all my reviews
Please do not bother with this book. Aside from the obvious wiccan lifestyle descriptions this book is an advertisement for their school.
http://uk.blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-3Ehmk44hfrTW3O_hQbmFRwOhvoAlIGEorb7h
Book Review!!! Gavin & Yvonne Frost's The Witches Bible - 1972 - Continued.
The book bashing continues. If you are offended by my words against this book, then do not read.
I will continue from page 28, where it goes on to describe how you should meditate.
On page 30 he tells you to select a time in the morning when you can be free from distractions. He also states - 'you will have slept with a partner and are well adjusted sexually.'
What does that have to do with meditation? Is your partner there simply to facilitate your sexual needs, as and when you choose?
On page 31, I find the first, and only sign of Celticism. He has you make a sign in the air of the celtic cross to ward off evil spirits. Hmmm... rather dubious thing to do. I hardly think such a thing will keep away malevolent spirits at bay...
On page 33, as part of the meditation, he instructs you to open your aura, by opening your robe!!!! As far as I am aware, if you did this in public, it would be called flashing!
It gets better!
On the same page, he has a prayer which in insists must be said in order to encourage good spirits to protect you, which he claims - 'In order to encourage the spirits, most of whom were reared as Christians, and to further protect yourself, it is well to say a modified version of the Lord's Prayer.'
'Our friends who are in heaven, hallowed be your names.
God's kingdom come.
God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our weaknesses as we forgive those who wrong us.
Help us resist temptation, and deliver us from evil.'
Why would a religion that is so far removed from Christianity, use such a prayer? Could they not come up with one of their own? Also, how does he know these so-called spirits will have been 'reared' as Christians?
It isn't until page 36 that he remembers to tell you to close your aura, and robe! I know that many covens work skyclad, but it is never in such a base fashion. Being skyclad is supposed to be a simple and normal thing, and is never made into such a big deal.
The rest of the chapter is much of the same thing, talking about how to free the mind to become more psychic and receive messages from what they call 'Side'. The majority of Wiccans I know call this the Summerlands, and I'm pretty sure not everyone can 'receive' messages from it. The Frosts insist that everyone is capable of premonitions and psychic visions, and that it is modern life that has sent these abilities into hiding.
Chapter 3 is entitled 'Standard Service', which to me struck me as another reference to Christianity, as all other Wiccan paths do not use such terms.
The first paragraph says - 'There are three types of service used by Wicca. The first is the weekly service to which all are welcomed (they are generally called open circles, and not all are done on a weekly basis. Some covens never do open circles). It is held at a set time each week and led by the coven's flamen amd flamenca (supposed be called the High Priest and High Priestess). The second is eshbat (I think he means esbat...). This service is attended only by initiated coven members and occurs on the night of the full moon (actually, an esbat is a term used to mean any phase of the moon, and many covens celebrate the new moon as a time of new beginnings), the climax of the service being arranged to coincide with the moon's crossing of the local meridian (climax? I think he actually means literally!). The third is sabbat, the great festival held four times a year (I think he means eight... possibly...). Sabbats replace the eshbats scheduled for the key full moon (do they?).'
On page 50, we see that same sign of Celticism making an appearance in this 'version' of Wicca. When the coveners arrive for the meeting, they make a sign of the Celtic cross in the air. That's it.
He then says - 'The male-to-female and female-to-male relationships are always stressed in Wicca.' Are they? Surely it shouldn't matter about the number of male and female members in a coven?
He then states that proceedings begin at 7pm sharp, and the Flamenca (his version of a High Priestess) will blow three notes on a recorder to signal the beginning of the meeting. Hmm... why a recorder? Why does a signal have to be sounded? Surely the forming of the circle would be enough?
What is even stranger, is the fact that the primary tools they use are an ankh made of wood, and a whip, which the Flamen and Flamenca (those stupid words again!) hold across the chest, like the Egyptians used to. Not very Celtic to me! They also makes Celtic cross signs with the ankh. Very contradictory.
Now, this bit had me very worried!
He then asks if there is a child who wishes to help, and states that they use children between the ages of four and ten, and that it is fun for them because they are playing with fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has then light the candles and other such things, and states that it is then their responsibility to keep them lit, and that they should not have to be reminded all the time! They are children. My mother didn't trust me with candles when I was fifteen, let alone ten and below!
They then do their own version of calling the elements, using signs that really do not equate to them, like a vertical crescent for water(?????)
They then do their version of the Lords Prayer, and then speak a liturgy of how the universe was created by God, much like the Christians believe. Strange.
They then try to do hands on healing to those who are feeling ill, no matter what ails them, insisting that it always works.
Then, the servces ends after eating bread and drinking a warm drink, non-alcoholic, and insist that everyone drinks a glass of cold water before they leave as they maintain that people could come out of the moment while driving home and have an accident. Surely they should include grounding and releasing energy before closing the circle?
I will write more soon, and apologise for taking so long to get this blog posted. I have had serious pc problems, as my power supply blew and I almost fried my harddrives! Managed to get back online finally, and am trying to catch up with things.
More soon!!
BB
)O(
Sunday 23 September 2007 - 06:37PM (BST) Permanent Link | 1 Comment
Book Review!!! Gavin & Yvonne Frost's The Witches Bible - 1972
Now, unlike my other book reviews where I have reviewed books I thoroughly enjoyed and loved, this book made me cringe, scream, and gasp in ways The Malleus Maleficarum never did! (of which I own, and had a great laugh reading it!)
The Frosts describe their 'version' or Wicca as being Celtic Wicca. I say version, because it most certainly isn't the original! Nor is it remotely Celtic!
My first 'beef' with this book was the warning before the contents page -
'The authors of this book make no guarantee that the methods described with either give the desired results or adequately protect from possession or death. The methods have proven efficacious in our case, but anyone experimenting in this field runs risks about which we know far too little. We therefore take no responsibility for any consequences that may result from the use, the reading or the possession of this book.'
The introduction starts with the very first line stating - 'Some people would call me a wizard. They would call my mate a witch. We call ourselves flamens (specialised vocabulary used in this book is defined in the glossary) of the Wicca faith.'
Now, as far as I have ever known, a wizard as described by most dictionaries, is someone who has exceptional magical powers. Hmmm... I can already feel the ego coming out. Wiccans generally never use the word wizard, some don't even use witch.
As for flamen - 'A flamen was a name given to a priest assigned to a state supported god or goddess in Roman religion.' - according to Wikipedia.
Now, he actually thinks himself a form of deity! (apologies for the sarcasm, but I simply cannot help it!)
Ah, now we get to the good bit - 'Our religion does not require a large congregation making weekly cash payments,' pg 3
And yet here when they advise on starting your own coven - 'charge a minimum admission of $1 or take up a collection' pg 186 - (there is another page upon which they request $1 for tools each week, but oddly enough, I have been unable to find it again...)
The first few pages talk about the differences between Christian dogma and beliefs and those of Wicca. And yet, he goes on to say that he believes Jesus was a 'great healer' and had wonderful 'power'. Surely these days we have no way of knowing? I have no idea if he even existed or not, and if he did, I suspect he was just a man, preaching his beliefs.
At the end of the introduction, he says - 'Wicca may not transform your world in 24 hours, but after all, what will? Give Wicca an open-minded trial period. You will like it.' pg 6
I half expected the 'will' bit to be in capitals!!!
He then goes on to the chapter 'Basic Precepts and Definitions'. The opening line being - 'Wicca is a religion of joy and love. (I have no problem with that, but is there not more to it?) Its practice brings warmth and pleasure to all participants.' - pg 7.
Hmmm... emphasis on the 'pleasure' bit.
This bit I almost missed!!! - 'We are not White Witches. We practice the age-old art of wiccacraeft, or the ''craft of the wise.'' - pg 8.
And I thought it was only Ravenfraud who spouted that nonsense!!! Wicca? Age-old? Yeah... okay...
He goes on to to describe the levels in Wicca development, going from levels ten to one, with ten being a neophyte, and one being 'Ipsissimus' or at total contemplation. He then goes on to say that at levels two and one, you are in direct communication with the spirit plane.
Then, on page 11, he refutes the idea of Hell, stating that 'Hell is here on earth. It is inside you.' He states that 'Physical torture and starvation (of food, sex, or spirit)' is that such Hell that will 'break the soul'. Now, food I can understand, but lack of sex will not actually do a great deal of harm to you. The body has a way of releasing tension, particularly in men (you boys remember wet dreams???) and will do it on it's own if you don't.
There is a passage on page 16 - 'The God of Wicca loves all. (this sounds very Christianesque) Your earth-plane shell is the most perfectly developed (perfection is relative, not universal) of all the shells on earth and is a manifestation of God's love. Your body is not to be ritually deformed by circumcision (what about for medical reasons?) or tattooing or silicone injections, and it is to be kept naked or minimally bound up on all possible occassions.'
Now, how is tattooing deforming the body? What about the Maori? Decorating the body has been seen as an honour to deity by many cultures for centuries.
Not to mention that I can think of numerous animals much better built than us! After all, we give birth to young that require constant attention, and are not born with the ability to walk and hide, like most animals. We are the most helpless infants on earth. Is that perfection?
Now, on page 18 he bad-mouths other 'sects' of Wicca - 'Some sects of Wicca rely on the use of spirit to the exclusion of raised power. Covens will go looking for spirits that are miserably clinging to the earth-plane, unaware that their body is dead. These spirits can be trapped and used as workers. Death dealing ceremonies make use of a trapped spirit to go and enter the body of a sleeping man while his soul is absent, preventing the return of the rightful soul. (The soul leaves the body during astral travel and during dreams.) The spirit can either take over the shell and possess it, or it can withdraw the remaining vital force and cause the shell to die.'
What a way to accuse other Wiccan paths! I know of no Wiccan who would ever do such a thing, and have a funny feeling that such ceremonies are perhaps done in Frostie Wicca, but are hidden under such a pretence.
Also, the soul does not leave during sleep. It has been said that the soul leaves when a person is in a coma, but that is hardly like sleeping.
From page 23, it starts sounding rather like a Christian preacher - 'The God of Wicca loves you and wants you to be useful and to develop.'
Sounds a lot like - 'Jesus loves you and wants to save you'
Then on page 24, at the end of the chapter, he says - 'Are you so preconditioned that you can't admit to known documented facts? (what facts?) Come study with us so that the oldest religion can answer todays needs.'
Oh no, not preachy at all, is it???
I had no idea that this would take so long, so I'll be doing it in stages.
I'll do another in a day or two.
I know that there are those out there that will have read this book and perhaos believe in what it says. You are free to choose and believe what you will, but personally, I find this... book, morally and ethically reprehensible. When I get to the later chapters, those who have not read it, will see what I mean!
P.S. I know the picture is of the reprint, but I couldn't find one of the original.
BB
)O(
When any natural predator acquires a taste for one particular type of prey thus creating a dependency which may rely upon both availability and convenience will ultimately determine whether an apex hunter will acquire specialized skills in greater acquisition.
For anyone who predates upon children it is generally a matter of obtaining a status of trust and authority within the mind of an emotionally vulnerable child.
Though should trust and authority not be an option there have been many predators who had relied upon physical abuse and intimidation. Where in either scenario it is common where a child will not turn against their abusers for fear of hurting others within their immediate family environment which may also strip them of any semblance of security in possibly living the remainder of their childhood either with a relative or in state custody.
The argument and challenge that proof of child abuse would be served if any such victims made their presence known only serves in further pandering the same mentality which believes itself immune of the charge of sexual exploitation and manipulation of adolescents.
Gavin, Yvonne, etc.-
I might not be around for a few days. I am thinking of having a sex relationship with this woman that is married to a good friend of mine. No, no, it's all right, as they are in an "open" relationship, or so she says.
We haven't actually gotten around to doing anything yet, but I am in "love" with her. No, really-I really, really am in "love" with her, I promise.
Anyway, I'm going to try to work this out so nobody will know, so I might be sneaking around having sex for a while, so might not be around for a few days.
WIsh me luck, folks.
Lol.Pagan Temple, just becareful of jealous husbands.. and as far as book reviews go, heres one i like
Have you even read the entire book?, April 5, 2007
By D. McCoy-Musselman "Catt" (Blacksburg) - See all my reviews
Those who have only read parts of this book, and not the book in whole should be careful what they say. Sure there is talk of what some cultures did with their children...that is history folks! It is not what the Frosts do to children! I know these people...they are not perverts, they do not molest or encourage people to molest children. They present historical facts as they are and were. Read the book for yourself folks, and stop listening to folks who have heard bad from a friend....use your own mind. Go to a festival nearby and meet them for yourself! Talk to them and listen!!!! I know the Frosts. I do not adhere to all they teach, but I respect them for the Elders that they are, and the milestones they have made in the name of Wicca. No, not all witches are Wiccans, nor are all Wiccans Frost followers. I would rather consider myself an open minded person who makes my own opinions for myself. Cheers to those who use their mind and their ability to see beyond the "blacklisted" crap issued by others! As for Gardner, I was trained Alexandrian/Gardnerian ... I know what goes on, and doubt that many do, they just quess! Thank You Gavin and Yvonne for writing this book even if I do not adhere to all of it. I respect you both and will continue to read every book you write! Blessed Be!
I have a traumatic brain injury caused by an automobile accident.
I am not amused by the use of the initials B.D.D.
Please educate yourselves about brain injuries [traumatic and acquired] and then hope like hell that it never happens to you.
spike
When one such as Aj Drew uses a Brain injury as an EXCUSE for vendettas and bad behaviour in general the BDD fits
So Pagan Temple, you say you aren't very interested in reading the Frosts' source material, but you're willing to give your opinion on it.
And you can be bothered to search out and post irrelevant material from a poster's blog.
You forgot to include the interesting observation there that has a lot to do with the pushing here for people to come to a Frost event in public and ask them questions there:
" And it was reported last year that whenever anyone had questioned the Frosts while at Rochester Pagan Pride regarding their controversial beliefs involving children they apparently had little or nothing to say."
I want to say something to start thsi off.
Every writer has sosme bad reviews and some good.
But since "certain" people wish to only post bad ones of others then I will keep with the flow.
The following reviews are on other books by the Frosts excluding the Witches Bible.
If you will note the dates many are before 2007/06
****************************
Horrible, January 7, 2001
By Voco InDubium (Boston, Mass) - See all my reviews
Stay away from these people, they fluff up their books full of make believe B.S. and psychodrama... mostly geared towards the teens and the easily influenced. Instructions include how to make your own lightsabre and use the Force. (I am your father Luke) Puhhhhh-leassseee. Don't bother looking for it, it's out of print for a reason. It's drivel.
There's nothing Wiccan about these Witches..., June 7, 2001
By Jonathan Burgoine "bookseller" (Ottawa, Ontario Canada) - See all my reviews
The "Witch's Handbook," offered by the Frosts is in no way representative of any other group or solitary witch I've ever seen. The complete lack of ethics in this book is astounding.
Magick is discussed more as a means to an end than anything else: find something you want, use magick to get it. There's a passage whereby the authors suggest inundating a car with imagery and psychic energy of crashes in order to make sure no one else buys it. Any other witch I know would see that as a negative act, not a positive one.
I've been practicing for nearly eight years, and though I'm an ecclectic sort, I've never come across any other book this empty of virtue or knowledge. This is not witchcraft as I've ever seen it before, and while disagreeing paths are a wonderful thing, this book became the only one I ever returned in my long history of wicca/witch/pagan bookbuying.
Don't waste your money.
1 star because it's the lowest I could give, August 15, 2007
By C. Dieppa "Book Worm" (Jacksonville, Fl USA) - See all my reviews
Stay away from anything written by the Frost. There are so many much better books on this subject to choose from, why waste your money on this rubbish?
How to build an economic empire on falsehoods and lies., February 15, 2005
By Lucifera Shadow (Southeastern NC USA) - See all my reviews
I honestly have to say that the Frosts have justifiably garnered nearly the worst reputation in the history of Witchcraft. They base their teachings on the shoulders of giants, and then claim it's their own, and they make themselves out to be experts when they literally make it up as they go along. This is not true Witchcraft, this is a fallacy.
The ridiculous content in this book is no exception. The book is nothing but a collection of anecdotes by friends and acquaintances, includes constant name-dropping, and is complete and utter rubbish. There is absolutely nothing of any use in this book whatsoever, and you will not learn a single thing about Witchcraft by reading it.
At best, they're laughable. At worst, they're making their money on naive people who are new to the Craft and don't know any better.
I'm not a Wiccan, I don't follow the Wiccan Rede, I'm a longtime Witchcraft and hoodoo practitioner--but from my 24+ years of study and magickal work, I can tell you that there are hundreds of better and more informative books out there for every magickal path, Wiccan and non-Wiccan alike, but this isn't one of them.
My recos: Embracing the Moon by Yasmine Galenorn; just about anything by Patricia Telesco; Everyday Magic, and The Craft by Dorothy Morrison; Secrets of Modern Witchcraft Revealed by Lady Sabrina; Mastering Witchcraft by Paul Huson; Earth Power by Scott Cunningham; Charms, Spells and Formulas by Ray T. Malbrough, just to name a few.
Don't waste your money on this book, the Frosts have taken enough people already.
If you want to be Harry Potter, June 22, 2003
Reviewer: A reader
This book was very boring, and had a lot of pointless stories about the authors in it. It also seemed to be targeted at silly teenagers who are interested in "Wicca" (quotes, because that's not really what they're interested in) only because they like to fantasize about spells that will make others do what they want. This is not Wicca at all. The worst part of this book even made me laugh-vampires, indeed!
Read this only if you want to hear the authors talk on...., November 24, 2002
Reviewer: A reader
and on about their school. This book is a waste of money and paper. There are two good uses for it: a coaster or confetti.
Don't bother buying it, new or used!, October 22, 2002
Reviewer: A reader
Luckily I found it at the public library. I found the book full of short stories, some of which left me wondering if they were actually true. No technique or exercises to lead the beginner in the right direction. It's a waste of time just reading it. You're better off reading something useful like the Spiral Dance by Starhawk, To Ride a Silver Broomstick by Silver Ravenwolf, or anything by Edain McCoy. I'm a newbie by the way, so I know how frustrating it is sometimes. Keep looking!
These authors use the "Farce", November 21, 2001
By "necrodog" (Loveland, Colorado United States) - See all my reviews
I spotted Gavin and Yvonne Frost's Church and School of Wicca online and thought I'd better get one of their books to read before investing the "tuition." I have never been happier to have bought a book only to learn it was a jumble of ridiculous notions.
As a practicing pagan of over 15 years, I was astounded at the lack of ethics presented by this book. Their use of "The Force" from Star Wars to describe the magic around us may be considered helpful by beginners but it is for those very beginners that I most fear. If this book were your first exposure to "Wicca", I use quotes because I don't feel this book exemplifies Wicca at all, you are likely to be a danger to both yourself and others.
Please, consider Scott Cunningham or even Silver Ravenwolf as alternatives before buying anything written by the Frosts.
Wiccan FARCE, June 29, 2001
Reviewer: A reader
I've never read any of Frost's previous publications and now I know why. They are a completely phoney and invalid when it comes to the world of Wicca and the Craft. These people are spreading dangerous knowledge, most of which isn't true (for example, any Ceremonial or Enochian Magickian would cringe at their pronunciation of YHVH). They refer to the Spirit of the universe as the "Force" and liken it to the force referred to in the movie Star Wars. They ramble on about things like "mind keys" and "psychic links" and the "web of the wyrd". People, if you are a serious student of the Craft, hopefully you'll realize that this is a vain attempt at popularity and fame. This isn't a true book of the art of magick. Not even close. Anyone who truly understands "the web of the wyrd" as the Frost's refer to it, understands that magick isn't supernatural and that such phenomenon can be explained by quantum physics. (Read Talbot's Holographic Universe). Also, read Magick for Beginners. Now there's a REAL book on Magick. After browsing through a few chapters, I RETURNED THIS BOOK TO THE BOOKSTORE!
There's nothing Wiccan about these Witches..., June 7, 2001
By Jonathan Burgoine "bookseller" (Ottawa, Ontario Canada) - See all my reviews
The "Witch's Handbook," offered by the Frosts is in no way representative of any other group or solitary witch I've ever seen. The complete lack of ethics in this book is astounding.
Magick is discussed more as a means to an end than anything else: find something you want, use magick to get it. There's a passage whereby the authors suggest inundating a car with imagery and psychic energy of crashes in order to make sure no one else buys it. Any other witch I know would see that as a negative act, not a positive one.
I've been practicing for nearly eight years, and though I'm an ecclectic sort, I've never come across any other book this empty of virtue or knowledge. This is not witchcraft as I've ever seen it before, and while disagreeing paths are a wonderful thing, this book became the only one I ever returned in my long history of wicca/witch/pagan bookbuying.
Don't waste your money.
Caveat emptor, January 19, 2001
Reviewer: A reader
I've met Gavin and Yvonne Frost at Pagan festivals and they seem like nice enough people with delightful senses of humor. Frankly, however, I am among those many Pagans who find their Craft teachings very disturbing. I have been a practicing Witch for well over 35 years and, notwithstanding the enthusiastic recommendations of younger Witches that you might read here, I would not recommend this book to a new Pagan. I believe that its emphasis on manipulative magick is dangerous to anyone, not only novices. It might have value to a student of the Craft who has already absorbed such works as Starhawk's The Spiral Dance and other modern Craft classics. If they have the wisdom to discern what is useful about the Frosts' variation on Witchcraft, leaving the questionable material alone, it might be an interesting addition to their growing library. I would never advise anyone to avoid reading a particular book -- all knowledge is useful -- but I would never recommend to a student of Paganism, Witchcraft or Wicca that they begin their journey on the Frost's path. It could lead them into a forest from whose darkness they might never find their way back. Blesséd be.
10 of 12 people found the following review helpful:
Who are the Frosts?, January 16, 2001
By "hermesdarkhawk" (Old Westbury, NY United States) - See all my reviews
This is the question I asked myself when I had picked this book up. I did not know anything about them, but after reading the book I know more than I care to admit. This book contains some good knowledge, don't get me wrong, but it also contains what I disagree with that I want to mention.
Anti-Christian attitudes run rampant throughout the chapters. They speak of Christian close-mindedness. Nothing can hurt the cause of Witches wishing to be taken seriously as a religion more than bad mouthing more "mainstream" religions. I am anti-badmouthing any group of people because of stereotyping.
Anti-Male attitudes peak through once and awhile as well. The Frosts, particularly Yvonne, doesn't mind voicing their opinion that women are higher ethically (for lack of a better term) than men.
They use the book as a means to brag of their personal power and accomplishments. Their lack of noting where their facts and figures comes from leads me to think that some if not all may be made up (conjured if you like puns)
There is also a sections where they state being gay is the spirit not deciding whether it wants to be male or female, am I the only one who sees something wrong with this.
However, I do find the cover pretty (thats why I bought it)
I did not get why so many people disliked the book, until..., July 19, 2003
By Dr. Miranda (Michigan) - See all my reviews
I read the online reviews of this book about half way through it, and I honestly had no idea why so many people disliked the book. I was really enjoying it, and I was fully prepared to come online and give it 5 stars.
Now that I have finished the book though, I have had to reconsider my original plan.
Yes, the book is very good. I really enjoyed the first 200 pages or so. With short chapters on a vairety of topics such as spells, energy work, psychic healing, manifesting what you want in life, etc. the book reminded me of a 'new age' version of some of the popular self-help titles that are currently popular (power of your subconscious mind - Murphy; and Wayne Dyer titles come to mind).
However, I was completely unprepared for the last chapter, where wife-swapping as an act of spiritual salvation is espoused. This ideology was too much of a stretch for me, and it definately tainted my impression of the book.
In all, I would recommend this book, and I did enjoy reading most of it, but I would want to caution conservative readers that they may want to avoid reading the last part of the book.
Wotta crock!!, April 30, 2005
By Laurel Jenkins-Crowe "jenkinscrowe" (Lafayette, LA) - See all my reviews
The Frosts' version of Wicca is atheistic and almost Satanic (LaVey version) in its utter selfishness. Use Wicca (by which they really mean witchcraft, since they provide no belief system or ethics) to do any damned thing you please! Why not? After all, it's all about you. And them, and their School, which they call a "church" for no discernible reason.
However, if you can't give over an entire room of your house to practice, and decorate said room with a permanent symbol drawn to specifications on the floor according to an exact ink recipe that includes your own blood, then "you can't do Wicca". Awwwwww.
At least this one doesn't include instructions for ritual child rape. Sheeeeeesh!!
What the he*l is this stuff, May 21, 2006
By Patricia S. Nickell (Jacksonville, Florida United States) - See all my reviews
This is not Wicca becasue Wicca doesnt pormise that you will be able to control people through the use of " Your Magickal White Witchcraft Powers". Grow up Hermoine and Harry this is the real world. The only thing I liked about this book is that it had some Astral Projection. And do these poeple not teach that is something was going to posess your body it would be drawn back into it. Then how do they promise to teach you how to posess someone elses body. This is not reall Wicca or Witchcraft if you want real withcraft try: Wicca: A guide for the Solitary Practitioner or any of the Scott Cunninghams books. OR Raymond Bucklands books and my favorite one Silver Ravenwolf.
Absolutely Horrible!!, June 5, 2003
Reviewer: A reader
This is one of the worst books on witchcraft I have ever read. It is sloppily put together and contains an abundance of false information. There are much better books on witchcraft out there.
I wouldn't call this White Witchcraft, July 23, 2001
Reviewer: A reader
I found I needed a shower after finishing this book as it left me feeing slimy. I wouldn't call what is presented here as white witchcraft and I really believe that the advise here crosses the line. There are lots of justifications for doing these things (in your best interest and noone elses) but controlling someone and justifying it as giving them a learning experience is still ignoring the rede "An ye harm none, do as thy will." There is some great information here, but I feel that you could get that elsewhere's. I don't agree with the Frost's here, but again, that is my right and their oppinion is there's. I did come away with a better understanding after reading the book and it also showed me a path I'd rather not follow. If your looking for the knowledge of Wicca and how to apply magick, I'd stay clear of this title. If your sure of your path and want more information maybe get it from a library to be sure this is what your after. Remember we are all responsible for our actions, and the effect that they have on others.
Don't Buy It, July 7, 2001
Reviewer: A reader
This book is full of stories of people that improved their lives with witchcraft but offers no explanations of how to do it yourself. It seems to be a way for the authors to self-promote their school. There is no reason to buy this book when there are so many truely helpful books about magick out there.
Dear Gods!?!!, April 12, 2001
By Mellee (New Zealand) - See all my reviews
You don't want to get me started on the cr@p in this book! Let's just say I regret getting it out of the public library. First book I've ever thrown against the wall! Read it only if there is nothing else, and only to see the stupidity. All the bad things I have heard about the Frosts seem to have achieved fruition in this book. They claim to be Wiccan and then proceed to violate most of the precepts and ordains by publishing this effluent. I am not Wiccan but even so, I was disgusted by so much of this.... Enough ranting.
Blessings.
Boring and useless!, April 10, 2001
Reviewer: A reader
When I bought this book I was expecting just what the title said - the magic power - this book is boring and useless. The book isn't organised and gives hardly any information. The book does tell you how Witchcraft can help you in life but the book doesn't guide you. A total waste of time as the book is filled with rubbish and often repeats itself.
How to cheat others and influence weaker people., February 27, 2000
Reviewer: A reader
This book has few (if any) redeemable qualities. It is not much more then a cheap attempt at knocking off a rewrite of an all ready flawed book in an attempt to cash in on the current popularity of modern Witchcraft (Pagan or otherwise).
When I received an advanced copy from the publisher last June, (so it was possible for the other reviewer to have read it before it came out....as I did.) I tried to approach the book with an open mind....however....the title is as misleading as the `words' inside.
If some is looking for information about Modern Pagan Witchcraft they will not find it here....what they will find is ways to cheat hotels, get free air travel and other wise be a pain until someone gives you something.
If that is your goal...by all means buy the book...however if you have a set of ethical standards higher then the slug (with apologies to any terrestrial, gastropd mollusks reading this) ...spend your money on something worth reading.
The Frost's are mercenary, New Age sell-outs, June 28, 1999
Reviewer: A reader
If there has not been sufficient evidence that the Frosts are mercenary hacks, this book is the smoking gun. This book is insulting. It is "rewritten", rehashed trash, marketed to modern day "Good Witches" and pawned off as something original. If, Gavin and Yvonne, you are so hard up for cash, open a lemonade stand or buy a 1*900 number like everyone else. Don't insult my intelligence.
Well, I'm back. I changed my mind. I decided that no matter how much in "love" I am with that certain wife of a certain friend of mine, I 'd better just not do it. It wouldn't be worth it.
Besides, all my pagan friends might put me down, and insult me, and say mean thing to me. Then I'd have to pretend that I was sorry for falling in "love" as opposed to being sorry they found out and were saying bad things about me.
Then, I'd feel really, really dumb going on other folks blogs and criticizing them.
Carol-
You just don't get it, dear girl. I don't give a fuck what's in the book. That's my point. I just want to read their blog and take part in a discussion about what they want to write about. Whatever that is. I don't care what they want to write about IT'S THEIR BLOG.
You are the one, among others, that insist the topic be always about that one part of that one book.
Well, I'm taking part in the discussion that you insist we all must have. I'm taking part in it by telling you I don't give a flying fuck.
There now, does that clear it up?
Mom-E said...
"Edward,
I don't know about you, but I see a great difference between a work of fiction and one of non-fiction. The 'Good Witch's Bible' is supposedly an instructional for 'how to practice the oldest religion'. I think that quite a bit different than the movie 'Taxi' or any form of the literary 'Lolita'- don't you? "
So what you're saying is that if the exact same material were presented as fiction, you'd be okay with it?
I don't think so.
By the way, how many abused women and children have you taken into your home and supported?
"I don't have any desire to ban books, Ed. I DO have the desire to help draw attention to this specific book that I feel is an open doorway for abuses that should not be tolerated by any rational or respectable persons. Do I want the book banned? Frankly I don't care. I want people to KNOW about it. I want booksellers alerted to the content so that they can choose not to carry it. I want event hosts alerted to what is in it so that its authors are not hosted at events until or unless some reasonable response is made regarding the issue. Banned? If it is legitimately protected speech, then no- I do not want it banned. If it is looked at and judged by the laws of our land to be UNprotected speech- then I expect it to be dealt with as such. I am not a judge on these matters so what I want is for people to *be informed*. "
OF COURSE you want to ban books! That's what this is all about! You want to ban a book that you cannot prove has produced so much as one iota of harm because you don't like it. You just don't like the fact that I'm throwing the truth about what your goal is back in your face.
You want booksellers to choose not to carry it. Or what? Will you then encourage people not to go to the bookstore if they choose to carry it? What's that, then a threat to whomever carries it?
And you want the law to look at it and do what? Ban it? What will you do if it's determined to be protected free speech? Attack the judge the way Bill O'Reilly does?
I'm absolutely positive that you don't want to think you are a book burner and banner. But that's exactly what you're doing.
The book has been around for over 30 years. How old are you? Why weren't you making a fuss about this 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Why wasn't Mr. Drew.
"What I and others like me are doing is not accusing without proof- what we are doing is stating very plainly that we disagree with what was written- which is very clearly and easily proven. Unless one is debating that the Frosts did not write the book in question? What is being done is no different than the outcry against any public figure when they make a grave error in judgement. It's called an awareness campaign coupled with a boycott. "
Of course you're accusing without proof! Where are the dozens of cases of abuse encouraged by this book? Where are one dozen? Where are five? Where is one? There's no proof that this has done any harm to anyone.
What you are doing is also known as "restraint of trade." That means the Frosts could sue you in court for loss of business.
If this book is such a problem, why didn't Mr. Drew start his Pagan Jihad 15 years ago? Why not 20? Where was he? Where were you? Has this book, which was originally published by a major publisher and now is so unsuccessful that they have to self-publish it, suddenly grown in evil? Puh-lease!
Many years ago, when Jerry Lewis' career as a movie star was rapidly tanking, he was told to do something. He linked up with a telethon and has maintained popularity.
Mr. Drew, who has been a dismal failure as an author, is obviously furious that the Frost's have been successful for decades. This is about his attempt to find something to give him fame. It is his attempt to get people to notice him. And it is the unfortunate role that a few people with good hearts don't see this and are willing to burn books, accuse people of crimes with no evidence showing that any crime has ever been committed in order to protect children who have never been harmed. It is about living in a culture of fear--added to by the media and current government--and trying to deal with it.
"Have you read the book in question, Ed? What is your opinion on the contents?"
Yes. I read it when it first came out. I found it unoriginal and derivative then. Today, I find it still unoriginal, derivative, and also dated.
But unlike Mr. Drew, yourself, and a few others, I'm not willing to throw out the U.S. Constitution and become a book burner in order to justify some bizarre need for notoriety through inventing a problem where none exists.
Go on line and look up Dr. Fredric Wertham. He was doing the same thing as you and Mr. Drew were doing.. He was a doctor who claimed that some writing was damaging children. He got a few good-hearted people to agree with him and got a lot of media coverage. The result: an entire form of art and writing was virtually demolished for decades. That form--the thing that was so evil and vile and destructive to children--comic books.
You see, Mom-E, in the history of the world, individual books are not banned or burned without groups to support the movement, and then the group takes on a life of its own. The destruction ends up going far beyond the original cause of action. In reality, you and Mr. Drew have not been able to show harm to any individual. But history has shown that actions such as what you and Mr. Drew are attempting can result in the destruction of entire movements and communities.
What books on the Craft do YOU like? If the Frost's book is banned, there's nothing to stop the banners from looking at the books you like and banning them.
A woman named Andrea Dworkin worked hard to get a law passed in Canada that would get certain books banned. The first book that ended up being banned was her own. When Mr. Drew's books are banned you will have yourself to blame.
Edward Anderson-
Very well put. I've tried to give AJ Drew the benefit of the doubt to where I've given him credit for at least believing he was doing the right thing. The more time that passes, however, the harder it is for me to believe that.
I think, sir, that you hit quite a few nails on the head.
The title of this blog entry is "Plausible Evasions," so if I am discussing what questions the Frosts are evading I am entirely on topic.
As I've explained before, on nearly every one of their web pages Gavin and Yvonne Frost say that if their readers disagree with them, they should write to the Frosts. I'm writing.
Its not just the book but also Aj has stated he wants to run the Frosts out of the Pagan community.Kindasmacks of Pagan fundementalism, if you dont agree with me or i dont agree with you its my duty to purge you from my community.. Reminds me of when the Southern Baptists boycotted Disney in Florida for hiring Gay people. A truly republican thing i say.. And as far as Drews books getting banned, Theres nothing noteworthy to even ban them for.. Catcher in the Rye has more meat than his books, But yes Ed i like your take on this
Greetings To Gavin, Yvonne, and Shadowhawk-
I wanted to inform you of what I just recently discovered regarding a blog in the Rochester New York area. The name of it is "Witches.SupernaturalParanormal", the url is below as follows- (quotation marks inserted by me)-
http://witches.supernaturalparanormal.com/
Shadowhawk, it would seem as though you and I are the subject of this post, which I have copied as follows-
"It would seem that the attack strategies of the local Rochester Wiccan community is shared by all Wiccans across the country. And when voicing concerns against such Wiccan elders as the Frost there of course is a group of Wiccans more than willing to do whatever it takes to fight back on behalf of Wiccan ritual sexual predation against children everywhere.
"So since these Wiccans have shown that they are so willing to defend the rights of pedophiles and Goddess knows what other forms of depravity I had thought it only right that such people receive the attention they undoubtedly crave so much.
"From now on there will be listed on the right side of our blog under the heading “Pagan Pedophilia Supporters” will be found a growing list of links representing such people so that everyone in the Pagan community can then make an informed choice as to whether or not they may wish to associate with such questionable individuals."
"So Mote It Be.
"archaeus"
True to his word, here is the group of links in question, under the title-
#
Pagan Pedophilia Supporters
* Pagan Perspectives
* The Dancing Wiccans
* The Pagan Temple
Unfortunately, also true to form, Archaeus doesn't know his fucking left from his right. He says the links will be on the right of his blog, it took me a couple of looks to realize they are actually on his left.
But, since this guy doesn't know his fucking ass from a hole in the ground, I guess it's understandable he wouldn't know his left from his right.
Oh, and lest I forget, his sole commenter on the post in question- "Calling A Wiccan Spade A Spade"-has a curious take on me and Shadowhawk. He seems to have decided that-
Brian Said,
"Why is it that the only people who seem to defend all the stupid shit done by Wiccans seem to be all from the gay community? Reading the writings by Pagan Temple and Shadowhawk along with their defense of the Frost makes that point very evident.
"It bugs me that these two loud mouths have to make both the Wiccan and the gay community look bad. Like we need any more help. Somebody just stick a Frost wooden penis in both they’re flapping yaps and shut them up"
That's quite odd, I thought it was the Frosts and their supporters who are supposed to be the homophobic branch of Wicca, and the gay bashers.
Of course, I am sure they would deny this as an example of homophobic gay bashing.
Maybe they are right. Maybe it is more an example of the idiotic rantings of a couple of little pussy-assed bitches.
Oh, and lest I forget, AJ of course made an appearance, with a comment on another post, which I have decided to reproduce in part here-
"My wife pointed me towards this blog. I would like to share some of the many discoveries I have made concerning so called leaders in our community who support the Frosts. Be careful if you become involved in this battle. Although it is a just cause, my wife and I now live with death threats and other intimidation as part of our everyday life."
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com
SO there you have it. These are the kinds of "people" you are dealing with.
Since the Frosts refuse to just go away the way AJ and his supporters want, and since me and Shadowhawk have the temerity to defend them, then me and Shadowhawk, along with the Frosts, are "Pagan Pedophilia Supporters".
What a cheap bunch of two-bit little prick bitches.
"The child's sob in the silence curses deeper
Than the strong man in his wrath."
Elizabeth Barrett Browning
"Selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race."
William Ewart Gladstone
"If a man has no conscience and is devoid of belief, then his oath is not worth a dime."
Sybil Leek
All we Have To fear is.. Fear itself.. Winston Churchill.. and thank you PT for letting me know im a gay basher.. Its News To me
Shadowhawk-
Yeah, that's one of the complaints I've read about the Frosts from AJ Drew and some others, that they are supposedly homophobic, and gay bashers, etc.
But, Drew's followers and supporters then turn right around and call me and you gay, as though that is quite the insult.
And then AJ Drew and some of his followers have the gall to complain when their own motives and ethics are called into question. A brazen example of hypocrisy if I have ever seen it.
I don't know about you, but I personally think that the anti-Frost crowd has just proven they have no fucking integrity. If they did, the comments of Brian would be roundly denounced by them. I'm not counting on it though.
That's what little fucking pricks do, try to intimidate people that don't march to their drumbeat. On the other hand, I have an idea that most people that read that blog would probably have an attitude that one should consider the source.
Hmmm, maybe I'll start a category on my blog, something like-
"Weak-ass men with four inch dicks, that falls head-over heels in love with their friends wives, who use them for what they can get with their husbands knowledge and permission, and then throws them away and then laughs at their silly asses, along with their husbands and the rest of the community."
Shadowhawk said...
"When one such as Aj Drew uses kind, he or she is not facing up to self-responsibility. [And it is always possible to ask for help from others with thinking things through or guidance on how to change the bad behavior].
Those of us who do have brain injuries-- whether from accidents or falls or physical confrontations [traumatic] or strokes, operations, poisonings, or tumors [acquired]-- do have BRAIN DAMAGE. In that sense, and in that sense only, "brain-damaged dude" is an accurate moniker.
Brain damage/brain injury is not who we are. I know that I cannot blame everything on my brain injury. I strongly doubt that A.J. Drew's actions can be explained [or excused] by his brain injury. All of us, with brain injuries or not, are more than our labels. To excuse our own personal bad behavior is to act as if we are our labels.
***
None of us are one-sided or all-bad or all-good or all-knowing. That statement includes A.J. Drew, the Frosts, and people on one side or the other or who wish to remain neutral, and the entire human race.
Name-calling cheapens all of us and weakens the arguments for both sides of this. That is something that I probably should have said first.
***
At this point, I believe this matter will have to be settled [as much as possible] by the courts. I think I read in this blog somewhere or in the comments that there is indeed a court date set. I must confess that I am astonished that A.J. Drew and the Frosts have not been told by their respective lawyers [or are ignoring the advice of their lawyers?] to stop trying the case electronically in the public arena of the internet.
***
Putting aside any personal feeling or experience or thought or opinion about the written material at the heart of this matter, I will close with the following statements:
I support the Frosts' right to write, publish, and sell their material. Part of the risk of having freedom of speech is that someone will come along and say or write things that are offensive to someone else. I am willing to take that risk in order to continue to live in a free society.
I support A.J. Drew's right to question inclusion of certain material in the book and subsequent revisions WITHOUT alleging that the Frosts have ever personally engaged in such behaviors or are in favor of such behaviors.
I support the Frosts' right to respond or not respond to A.J. Drew's questioning of the material as they see fit.
I do not support A.J. Drew calling the police in reference to possible selling of the Frosts' book at a pagan event in Arkansas. I think there are better ways to publicize that one has serious qualms about things which are written in a book.
Deciding that a book should not be distributed in the United States is up to the legal system, period. Our suppositions are conjectures only.
I do not support either side making claims or unsubstantiated allegations against the other without citing sources. Information without names and supporting documents is meaningless.
I do not support any blog which lists people or websites as supporters of pedophilia without proof, period.
I do not support name-calling of any kind by anyone. I do understand that this issue is emotionally charged and the difficulties [not excused by brain injury/brain damage or neuro-typical status] inherent in refraining from the name-calling.
I wish everyone the best in sorting this one out and in addressing the issues in a rational sane manner with the help of professional advocates within the legal system.
***
With respect to all,
brain-damaged spike
While as much as I appreciate the fact of others being upset over having been placed under such an unsavory heading as "Pagan Pedophilia Supporters" it does nothing in lessening the impact of having been first maliciously struck down by unrelated content from my own site.
Obviously there will be those who ignore any such cyber etiquette when so impassioned within debating over any particular issue. Where once having been offended with no evidence of any retraction or consideration of fairness only promotes a far greater insistence on the development of stronger defense measure.
I came seeking by invitation the opportunity to voice my opinion which was presented by the originating authors on what I felt to be objectionable literature. There had existed no writing nor any warning that I should expect to be brutalized and slandered by protective members of the Frosts interpretation of the craft using my own unrelated literary content as a means of intimidating and silencing the opposition.
My only so called offence had been in trusting and thus accepting the authors invitation to voice my personal objection or favor regarding their literary expressed belief and spiritual contribution to the craft.
Nowhere had there been posted any sign which read "Beware Of Dog".
Such unforeseen occurrences do have a tendency of reprogramming your visitors to conditioning themselves in expecting heavy engagement and thus should be excused when responding accordingly under such harsh conditions.
Blessed Be.
“But, Drew's followers and supporters then turn right around and call me and you gay, as though that is quite the insult.”
I think you need to clarify. Maybe SOME of Drew’s followers call you gay. NOT all. In fact I know Tim is not gay. He is looking for women on the internet. You PT I have no idea and to be perfectly honest I don’t care if your gay or not. I don’t see people by their preference for love or their color. I see them for their deeds.
“I don't know about you, but I personally think that the anti-Frost crowd has just proven they have no fucking integrity. If they did, the comments of Brian would be roundly denounced by them. I'm not counting on it though.”
I have no freaking idea who Brain is or what he has said. So Making that statement is a bunch of horse hockey.
"Weak-ass men with four inch dicks, that falls head-over heels in love with their friends wives, who use them for what they can get with their husbands knowledge and permission, and then throws them away and then laughs at their silly asses, along with their husbands and the rest of the community."
Sounds like a person who has a spleen to let not only against the person who may have used her but maybe also against her husband who stood by and let this happen and maybe even against herself because she was used.
Just my take on this with only the little bit said.
Hope everyone has a great weekend!!!!!
As to "Brian" calling Pagan Temple & Shadowhawk gay:
How dare you insult gay people like that!! LMFAO
Bubba stops pleasuring Himself just long enough to comment.. Now thats funny.. Drewbies will do anything to duck the issues.. could brain damage be contagious
I just noticed my botched cut-n-paste of Shadowhawk's comment regarding the BrainDamagedDude fitting.
What Shadowhawk actually posted was:
When one such as Aj Drew uses a Brain injury as an EXCUSE for vendettas and bad behaviour in general the BDD fits
Mea Culpa.
My response after the botched cut and paste job remains the same.
spike
Deciding that a book should not be distributed in the United States is up to the legal system, period.
Not true. It's very rare that the legal system actually decides whether any particular book can be sold. The courts should be the last option, to be used only when efforts at communication have failed.
Individual booksellers, bookstore chains, distributors, communities, and those in charge of policies at a temporary venue like a park or conference hall make most of the decisions on what books will be sold, through general policies, individual choice, or market realities.
There is no right to have your books sold anywhere. There is no right to be invited to speak at conferences. Those who decide what views will be offered within their sphere of influence have a responsibility to make informed choices.
Having all the facts is a vital part of making an informed choice, and sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Carol Maltby wrote:
There is no right to have your books sold anywhere. There is no right to be invited to speak at conferences. Those who decide what views will be offered within their sphere of influence have a responsibility to make informed choices.
Congratulations! You sound exactly like the extra-governmental book burners and book banners in every culture. You're right in league with extremist Christian fundamentalist sects who burned records by the Beatles next to Tom Sawyer, the Catholic Church (although they officially stopped in 1966), and even the Nazis before they ruled Germany.
Here's a picture of a Nazi book burning from 1933:
http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/gallery/01622.htm
The thing is, banning books, either by governmental or extra-governmental means, ends up developing its own life. Ban what you don't like today, and someone is sure to ban something you do like tomorrow.
By the way, considering that you, Mr. Drew, and others like you have done more to focus on a few pages taken out of context from one of the Frost's books has done more to draw attention to their books than thousands of dollars of free advertising. If you denounce the Frosts for writing their tripe, you are far more guilty of publicizing it and making people more aware of it.
Instant Karma!
Yeah, it's sort of like The Davinci Code by Dan Brown. If it weren't for all the hoopla over that book by it's detractors and critics, mainly in the Catholic Church, I more than likely never would have read the book.
After I read it, I wished I'd had those two hours or whatever of my life back. What a fucking waste of time. If it hadn't been for all the hell raised about it, I almost know that more than half of the people that read it would have never picked it up, and it probably would have never been made into a movie.
What's worse, the damned thing was so badly written, by the time I was two thirds of the way through it, I was rooting for Opus Dei.
It was the same situation with The Passion Of The Christ, only in that case, I actually liked that flick quite a bit. Still, the point is, if it weren't for all the hoopla, I never would have watched it, nor would a lot of other people.
Well, I have never read the Frosts book, nor do I intend to shell out two hundred dollars to read it, nor do I intend to read "it" from somebody's links on the internet, especially two or three pages of it.
I still defend the Frosts right to sell the book, and promote it, and I defend the rights of others to sell the book, buy the book, and read the book. I also defend the rights of The Frosts to appear at any event they please, and I defend the rights of organizers to have them as guest speakers and participants.
I am not a defender of pedophilia, I am a defender of the First Amendment, if that doesn't suit some people, tough fucking shit, because I am not changing nor am I apologizing.
Nor do I care if some judges rule against it, if it comes right down to it. Judges make rulings all the time I don't agree with, and I don't mind criticizing them for it. This would be no different.
If judges and the courts were perfect, the Dred Scott decision would never have come down the way it did.
Carol,
Could you provide us with your credentials? I ask this because you present yourself as some "learned expert". I for one would like to know what your qualifications for some of the "wild ass" statements you make come from.
IE: "That's strange, it's also very like Gavin's assisting the FBI's investigation of his student John Todd (someone he trusted enough to give a Church and School of Wicca charter) for sexual abuse of minors"
You need to research that comment a bit more thoroughly....did John Todd hold a Charter to the Church and School of Wicca, or did he claim to hold a Charter?
There is a bit of a difference there and I'm sure when you are delighting us with your acumen you want to assure that you throuroughly researched your diatribes for accuracy.
In another of your comments you state:
Warren Jeffs made a 14 year old virgin marry one of his supporters. Jeffs was convicted today of being an accomplice to rape, which may put him in an orange jumpsuit for 5 years to life.
Yes, it was a sad day for the Morman religion when the activities of Jeffs and his followers came into the public eye. Even sadder is the day you bring an announcement like this into this blog in another ill planned attempt to compare Gavin Frost to a power hungry, Morman with a God complex.
Christ on rubber crutches lady, this is like comparing apples to oranges.
Do you have anything intelligent to say today or are you just exercising your fingers?
Banging my head against the wall at the abject ignorance that seems to prevail in your commentary.
Debts
Hi-let me add to the simmering fun here by saying I've known the Frosts since I was six years old, and I am now forty one. My parents studied with the Frosts in the seventies. My father was actually involved with that whole John Todd affair. Mom and dad both helped to run the Church and School for a time. How come no one has asked me about any of this? I've offered before to give my side of the story, but I haven't heard anything from the De-Frosters. Oh, but I am doing an interview with Shadowhawk next week.
Have a great weekend, ya'll!
"You need to research that comment a bit more thoroughly....did John Todd hold a Charter to the Church and School of Wicca, or did he claim to hold a Charter?
There is a bit of a difference there and I'm sure when you are delighting us with your acumen you want to assure that you throuroughly researched your diatribes for accuracy." -- Debra Ravenswood, "Voice of Reason"
THE DAYTON CAPER
Final Report
On Sunday 22 Februrary the following Resolution was passed unanimously by the Board of Trustees of the Church and School of Wicca:
Resolution to Rescind School Charter
BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Trustees of the Church and School of Wicca that said Religious Association rescind and nullify the Church Charter issued to the "Watchers
Church of Wicca" in Dayton, Ohio.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that J.W. Todd aka Lance Collins, and Sheila Spoonmore aka Sheila Todd aka Deona, be defrocked and made unwelcome by the Church.
The reasons for this action lie in the investigative reports of Gavin Frost and Isaac Bonewits (Aquarian
Anti-Defamation League) who went to Dayton to examine the case. For a copy of the AADL report, write to Isaac Bonewits..., enclosing a
donation. Briefly, the investigation showed no evidence of harrassment by law-enforcement agencies but turned up considerable evidence soft evidence that the Todds are using the cover of Witchcraft to corrupt minors.
http://www.holysmoke.org/jtcwitch.txt
Carol (cut and pasted)
BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Trustees of the Church and School of Wicca that said Religious Association rescind and nullify the Church Charter issued to the "Watchers Church of Wicca" in Dayton, Ohio.
You state here that the Charter was issued to the "Watchers Church of Wicca" not John Todd.
According the article Todd and his wife were members, possibly clergy of the Church, but did not hold the Charter. And were thus defrocked and made unwelcome by the Church.
Again, do you have proof to support your commentary that John Todd ever held a Charter from the Church and School of Wicca?
Please do not quote the Yeti's Cyber Smithy as a reliable source.
Love and light,
deb
It wasn't an "article," it was Gavin's actual Board of Trustees report that he wrote. You have questions about it, ask him.
I did like how Gavin checked Todd's claimed lineage and found it bogus. Very like my contacting Kings College London, only to find they'd never heard of Gavin!
Then there's #8, where Gavin remarked on some of the Todd's plans for public Church of Wicca activities and publications.
Gavin said, "It is our recommendation that neither of these projects be supported by Witches," yet nobody screamed "WITCH WAR!!!" at him for it.
I don't recall having claimed any formal credentials here. I've been a bookseller for over 30 years, and many of my friends are publishers, writers, printers, illustrators, etc. I'm familiar with issues of child sexual abuse and clergy sexual misconduct because I have friends who are survivors of both, and because all of us need to know the consequences of adults violating that trust that children put in them. I've been a member of a coven for 20 years, and while I am currently on hiatus from my COG membership, I held clergy credential #124E000 with them and was a member in good standing of the Weavers local. I've contributed to books by M. Macha Nightmare and Judy Harrow.
Hi Fenix.. Yes indeed the wierdness abounds Debra, lets hope sanity rears its ugly head soon..Because common sense has seemed to leave these people hanging
Also to Archaeus thank you for EDITING my comment on your blog, its nice to know you know how to spell child sexual abuse.. And to Ed Anderson.Becareful Archaeus over here may add you to his rollcall of pedophile supporters.. Well i have a rollcall of my own on Pagan perspectives..Its Titled
THOSE WITH LITTLE OR NO INTELLIGENCE.. Archaeus made first on the list
I have a new post on Pagan Perspectives.. And i have just looked outside and have confirmed that the sky is indeed NOT FALLING.
But to a Drewbie who knows
Carol,
I like reading your posts a lot. You're intelligent, well spoken, well informed and a caring person.
I hate to criticise you, but you've given the idiots here just waaaaaaaaaaaaay to much information. You're trying to reason (can't be done) with arseholes who:
A. Haven't read the book and refuse to, yet will defend it viciously. (EW)
B. People who'll say Drew's books suck (they don't) and haven't read them.
C. I think these people are 'slow' or something, hence the comment by Pagan whateverhisnameis, that 'he doesn't care what's in the book', yet writes for hours about it, uh, DUH!
D. Are SO pathetically jealous of the man (Drew), so ignorant, so STUPID that they JUST KEEP MISSING THE GODDAMN POINT!
I hope you keep writing though, I really enjoy your posts :)
I have read Drews Book, and i Have Rad the Frosts book..Specifically Drews Wicca for Men, and Wicca Spellcraft for Men..not a whole lot there..i prefer His Story by Nicholas Mann .. And its so cool to take 3 or 4 pages out of context .. book burnings may come back.. if Drews ilk had there way
Shadowhawk said...
I have read Drews Book, and i Have Rad the Frosts book..Specifically Drews Wicca for Men, and Wicca Spellcraft for Men..not a whole lot there..i prefer His Story by Nicholas Mann .. And its so cool to take 3 or 4 pages out of context .. book burnings may come back.. if Drews ilk had there way
..."Jane, you ignorant slut"
Miss the point much?
Hey, Shadowhawk -- don't feed the trolls.
Shadowhawk said...
This is directed to Knowledge is Power.. Who the fuck are you.. ? You come into a blog where no one could give a shit less who you are, then you talk shit about people you know nothing about , then have the nerve to tell us were Missing the Fucking point..
That is to rich..only from a Drewbie could you get that level of sophisticated stupidity
Well my little bedwetting friend, it was a free country the last time I checked :)
Yes, I know, Drew's books are rife with integrity, I understand that you find them boring. But like I said, it's a free country.
Carol,
Me again.
You still evaded the question.
Do you know for fact or can you provide PROOF that John Todd held a charter with the Church and School of Wicca? Who's name was the Charter in and who was the organizer?
Carol Wrote: Gavin said, "It is our recommendation that neither of these projects be supported by Witches," yet nobody screamed "WITCH WAR!!!" at him for it.
NO Carol, they didn't....because there was PROOF that John Todd and his "partner" had been abusing a child. Gavin and Isaac went in, investigated and determined that The Church and School of Wicca did not want any association with Todd and recommended that all Pagans turn away from him. End of story.
Isaac and Gavin DID not, "create" damaging information through paraphrasing and post it far and wide for the purpose of creating a ground swell in the Pagan Community.
They went in, took care of a problem, scraped the poop off their shoes and went home for a cup of tea.
Now regarding your remark again about Gavin's Bogus Degrees...Kinda harkens back to Bill and Ted, don't you think?
Where did you garner the FACT that Gavin's degrees are bogus?
Please document what type of investigative work have you done to determine that the person known as Gavin Frost did not attend King's College and did not obtain a degree?
You've been referred to as intelligent and well spoken and under different situations I might find you an interesting person to visit with. But your paraphrasing and hitting just left of center really does nothing to promote a positive image of yourself.
Love and light,
Debra
I'm afraid this is too much drama for me. I'm a new student to Wicca and wanted to join an online school of sorts to develop my spirituality in this faith.
As an incest survivor myself, I can say that I'm even more disappointed in what I'm reading...if what I'm interpreting is correct(?)I wanted to join today but after reading the blogs, I'm not so sure this is the right avenue to take. I don't want to get sucked into something that is destructive and wholly negative.
I read several of the posts here and also on Pagan Nation.Com...
I have to say the more I read, the more disappointed I get. There is a Wiccans rede which says I believe: do what you will and harm none.
Child molestation is definitely harmful, even the promotion of it in word is an energy that destroys, if this is what is going on...I certainly hope what I'm reading is not true.
Gossip and argument are also harmful...I don't want to get involved in something if it is going to be like this. When people get together in faith, it seems they ultimately destroy one another, no matter how beautiful the faith might be, people cannot stop fighting.
:-(
I hate to criticise you, but you've given the idiots here just waaaaaaaaaaaaay to much information -- Knowledge is Power
I never assume that those loudly and actively participating in an internet conversation are the only ones involved. I'm not really trying to persuade the Frost supporters of much, because I don't think it's possible. But I do feel that those who are following the discussions here deserve information and analysis that doesn't have so much of a nimbus of POW! Biff! WHOMP! PTUI!!, like the climax of a Batman comic but more spittle-intensive.
Where did you garner the FACT that Gavin's degrees are bogus?
Please document what type of investigative work have you done to determine that the person known as Gavin Frost did not attend King's College and did not obtain a degree? -- Debra Ravenswood
I contacted King's College London, who told me they have no records of Gavin attending there. I checked the library database at Kings College, and there is no doctoral thesis listed under his name. I contacted Ray Buckland, who said he'd been given that information by Gavin when he was working on his biographical entry, but took it on trust and didn't independently verify it. I've asked the Frosts a number of times here, but they have refused to answer. And I've discussed all of that already, so please stop wasting my time.
You made some statements about Frost quotes being incorrect, how about you back those up with actual evidence?
According to the only mentions giving the source of their Doctor of Divinity degrees, the Frosts made them up and gave them to themselves. If they'd gotten them from a Crackerjack box, at least they'd have been given them.
It's not about the stuff -- the pieces of paper, some gathered together and glued on one side, the woodworking projects that get boiled in beeswax.
It's about people. It's about manipulating and controlling children's genitals and first sexual experiences. It's about saying that parents should hand over their children to the coven for their sexual instruction. It's about hanging on to that idea for 30 years with only the barest figleaf of "we can't advocate that anymore" to cover their asses.
It's those things that cross the line, the line that separates "icky but let's honor diversity" from "No. Absolutely not. Not worthy of pride, and should not be in the least bit acceptable to our community or any other."
Raven, my heart goes out to you. I would encourage you to never join with any group you feel uncomfortable with. It's that simple.
Of course, if you strictly follow such a practice, would you join any group? The denunciation of the Frosts deals with a few pages taken out of context from the many thousands of pages they have written. So perhaps it would be better to suggest that you look over the entire body of work of a group before joining with them to see whether or not you think they are worth supporting.
I would also, in this case, look at the people who are attacking the Frosts. NONE of them said anything until the Frosts were attacked by Mr. Drew, a rather unsuccessful author of numerous books that purport to be on Wicca although he says he is not a Wiccan and the books tend to stress more his personal positions and peccadilloes. In one he spent page after page attacking Raymond Buckland, a highly respected Wiccan and author, even though the book had nothing to do with Mr. Buckland.
If you go to what is essentially Mr. Drew's website, you will find that the people posting here are also highly visible there. They are basically groupies who think Mr. Drew has some degree of fame and they want to touch it.
Edward Anderson said...
"The denunciation of the Frosts deals with a few pages taken out of context from the many thousands of pages they have written."
How is it taken out of context? It's a pretty clear instructional.
Let me make something perfectly clear. I'm not a 'Drewbie' as you all seem to fond of calling anyone who agrees with the Drews that this instructional goes way beyond the boundaries of decency.
I have NOTHING to do with Drew in any capacity. Many years ago, I left the online Pagan community. Note that I said THE, not HIS. It means all of them. This was a case of Serendipity. I did a google search of Drew after he just popped into my head one day in August, and I thought to check if he'd written any new books. I didn't know that he'd had a brain injury, had two kids, or was married. I did however get directed to a website where this subject was brought up.
I don't care about the other bullshit in their book, it's just nonsense as far as I'm concerned. I do however care a great deal about the things they say about doing things that are illegal to children. A child's sexuality legally belongs to the child, NOT the adult. I know that it's an instructional to do something ILLEGAL and HARMFUL to children. It's not debateable, it's the LAW. Don't like it? Change the law or move to another country. Would any of you try to change the law? You'd have the parents of this country wanting you all in jail for the rest of your natural lives.
I'm a mother, although my daughter is now 22. She's Wiccan, I choose no label for myself other than Witch. I support the Drew's efforts because this is an appaling abuse of a religion.
Yes, I agree with the Drews, and NO, they don't 'direct' me to do anything. Anything I've done is on my own.
What I've learned at the GY playgroup:
A. If you can't fight fair, fight dirty, win at any cost, even if you are WRONG.
B. Should someone have an infirmity, go for that if you can't win a fair argument. Hitting below the belt is encouraged.
C. It's ok to lie.
D. Dance around any subject that you simply don't feel like addressing, such as dildo's for little girls.
D. Make up stories about people you don't like for bringing your teachings out into the light. It's ok to fabricate rumors and lies about people you don't like.
Oh, there's lot's more...but I'm sure you get my point, or do you?
I find it interesting that it's been 3.5 years for this to all come around, perhaps a little sooner, more like 3.3 years. It belongs to the Frost's, it's theirs and it's come home. Nature abhors a vacuum. ...just a thought.
Correction...
Oh, there's lot's more...but I'm sure you get my point, or do you?
I find it interesting that it's been 3.5 years for this to all come around, perhaps a little sooner, more like 3.3 years. It belongs to the Frost's, it's theirs and it's come home. Nature abhors a vacuum. ...just a thought.
That's 3.5 DECADES, not years.
Shadowhawk - I have never used my traumatic brain injury as an excuse for a vendeta. I mentioned it on my blog in a section called recovery. You and Debra took it and ran with it, now the Frosts are doing the same.
The current claim is that I can not be sued because I am not responsible for my own actions. I believe that is yet another excuse for why the Frosts have not sued me when in reality, I can not be sued because I am speaking the truth.
So you've actually witnessed something like this ritual suggests? You've seen the Frosts take part in molesting children? Funny, because in all my years, I've never seen anything like that. Ever. Not in the Frosts' home, nor my parents' home. Of all the kids I've known over the years whose parents were involved wtih the Frosts, I've never known anyone that was molested at the hands of their parents or the Frosts with the pretense of "ritual."
Truthfully, I'm not here to support any one person or group of persons. All I know is the truth of my own childhood. I'm tired of these wild accusations of child molestion and sexual abuse because it implicates my own parents. It does not take a genius to find where they were working for the Church and School back in the Seventies and even into the Eighties. When this all started, I fully expected to have cops and FBI agents showing up on my doorstep to grill me about the "horrors" I endured as a child. Cops have shown up before, . . . problem is, NOTHING EVER HAPPENED. This is no different than the "good people" of small town America sending out Social Services because they were so sure we were being abused for the Devil.
Seriously, people. Get a clue.
fenix said...
"I'm tired of these wild accusations of child molestion and sexual abuse because it implicates my own parents."
"This is no different than the "good people" of small town America sending out Social Services because they were so sure we were being abused for the Devil."
"Seriously, people. Get a clue."
You know, this is getting trying to say the least.
What don't you understand about the FACT that the Frost's WROTE AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL and PUBLISHED IT?
I would hope that if one of the parents in your child's world wrote something like that, you knew about it, you'd do SOMETHING.
What if it was your childs preschool, kindergarten, grade school, junior high school, high school teacher who wrote it or how bout a coach? Would you be comfortable with that?
Get a clue?
I can only shake my head in disbelief.
Do you know that there's an entire underground of pedophilic literature? Do you know that it's distributed between pedophiles?
Do you SERIOUSLY think that manual hasn't been in the hands of at least one? Wow, religious justification, a great day in the neighborhood!
Some people will use anything to justify illegal acts.
Fenix my dear, may you and your stupidity be friends forevermore.
Stupidity? How kind of you. I'm so glad you know the whole of my life and my experiences with the Frosts and my parents. Thanks so much for your dismissal.
Fenix-
Let me explain to you what the fucking bitch is getting at. She-or he-or it-is mad because you won't lie for the "greater good". You see, they have already made their minds up the Frosts are evil incarnate, so whether anything happened to you or not is irrelevant to them. You should be willing to say the Frosts abused you, because it would be beneficial to "society".
Yeah, right, it would actually be beneficial to them, or so they think, as of course they have deluded themselves into thinking they are the representatives of all that is good.
But, since you won't lie, or since you at least won't denounce the Frosts-despite the obvious fact you see no reason to do so-then according to them, you are "stupid".
This piece of shit has tried the same tactics with me, who the thing in question called "slow". That is their tactics, deride and denigrate anybody that doesn't jump on their two-bit bandwagon.
Give it time, Fenix, I'm sure they will eventually get around to sending you e-mails. They will probably drop little hints about how you can make a lot of money in a lawsuit if you testified against the Frosts. Of course, the fact that you would be perjuring yourself if you did so is beside the point, and not their concern in the least.
If this person really is a witch, it wouldn't bother me in the least to see it's ass burning on a stake.
Pagan Temple, you're so busy listening to yourself talk, yet again, you missed the point ONCE MORE.
Slow? Most likely.
Read slowly, you just might get it this time. I'm GLAD she wasn't raped as a child.
I take issue WITH THE PRINTED WORD.
Do I think the Frost's participated in the rape they call ritual? Well yes, since they SAY they did. I know it's difficult for you, you're so busy 'protecting' your first amendment rights, you have no time to give a shit about the RIGHTS of a child.
Yet again, you've missed it. I've NEVER talked to you on this bored, did I say BORED, I must be reffering to your rambling, self aggrandizing, BORING and uninformative posts. A Jungian slip I think.
What amazes me around here, you're all graduates or supporters of the Frost's school of Wicca and none of you has any psychic ability, usually one of the first things that DRAWS you to Wicca, nevermind someone who's gotten through their course.
You miss it yet again. I didn't call her a 'name'. I stated what I truly think of that person. Am I attacking an infirmaty of hers? Gee, maybe so, I really shouldn't have.
You should really work on your psychic abilities, they suck and
your projection is showing.
Knowledge is Power said, "What amazes me around here, you're all graduates or supporters of the Frost's school of Wicca and none of you has any psychic ability"
I don't care if you attack my psychic ability - whatever, since you don't know me - but I would like to point out that at no time have I ever said I was a graduate or supporter of the Church and School. I don't agree with large chunks of what the Frosts teach. My involvement here is to defend myself and my parents. The Frosts are old family friends to me, and that's it. I have my own path.
I offered my information because I thought people on here might actually be interested in hearing from someone who was there back in the day. You know, someone that would actually know what went on and whether or not the ritual in question ever happened. From what I've been able to tell so far, the only people on here are interested in is making accusations and dragging up obscure information that very few people are even aware of (or care about) in the first place.
Several years ago, this exact same arguement came around. Does anyone know what happened to that one? Can anyone find any information about lawsuits concerning the Witch's Bible in the last forty years? Are there any lawsuits pending now?
The energy that's been wasted throwing insults and insinuation back and forth could be better spent trying to do something that would actually make a difference. Feel free to burn some more up telling me how everyone needs to know what horrible people Gavin and Yvonne are. The people you've created in your minds are not the people I know. In the meantime, consider volunteering for CASA or Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or even for your own children's school. Do something besides hiding behind a computer keyboard and spewing hate.
"Knowledge" Is Power-
So who is this "CHILD" I should take time out from my defense of my first amendment rights to be defending? You say the word CHILD like you have a particular one in mind. Who is he or she?
Of course, there is not one. There is only some generic illussion you have created in your mind as a representative allegorical myth to represent all the children of the world.
Those of us who would prefer to spend our time defending the constitution of this country, including but not limited to the Frsit Amendment, are also defending those who are affected by it, including but not limited to children.
As such, I think I have done my part. I won't stand by silently and watch the constitution trashed for the benefit of protecting a myth.
Or, for that matter, I won't stand by silently and watched it trashed for the benefit of protecting a real person, including a child, yes.
I'm one of these "big picture" kind of people, sorry if you think that's boring. Which, as I am sure we are all aware, you do not think I am boring. If you did, you would not bother to respond so strongly to such a "boring" one as myself.
Nor do I believe you when you say you are glad Fenix was not raped. I think if the truth was known, if you found out she was, you would be smacking your lips in glee at the thought of finally finding something to use against the Frosts.
I know it, and we all know-including, deep down, you.
"I don't care if you attack my psychic ability - whatever, since you don't know me - but I would like to point out that at no time have I ever said I was a graduate or supporter of the Church and School. I don't agree with large chunks of what the Frosts teach. My involvement here is to defend myself and my parents. The Frosts are old family friends to me, and that's it. I have my own path."
Ok, point taken. BUT you did say that your mother told the Frost's on no uncertain terms that her daughter would never be part of such a ritual, yes? Good for her.
I'm not 'attacking' your psychic ability, honestly, it's an observation and if I hurt your feelings, I apologize. I could have kept it to myself. My frustration is showing.
"From what I've been able to tell so far, the only people on here are interested in is making accusations and dragging up obscure information that very few people are even aware of (or care about) in the first place."
I read it and the point was taken the first time. I'm not attacking your parents either, but I must say, I don't understand hanging out with anyone who writes the kind of stuff they do and exposing my children to it. I'm sure your mother felt that you were safe.
"The energy that's been wasted throwing insults and insinuation back and forth could be better spent trying to do something that would actually make a difference. Feel free to burn some more up telling me how everyone needs to know what horrible people Gavin and Yvonne are. The people you've created in your minds are not the people I know. In the meantime, consider volunteering for CASA or Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or even for your own children's school. Do something besides hiding behind a computer keyboard and spewing hate"
Fenix, I wish I didn't have to be here. I wish that part of the book had never been written. I have volunteered for many things, and still do when I have the energy and time to give. This is one of them. I personally believe this is a NECESSARY cause. It has to be done. I'm not spewing hate, I'm spewing frustration. As for the 'hiding behind a computer', ok, I deserved that, I shouldn't have called you stupid. I haven't insinuated one single thing, I'm a very honest and direct person, you'll know exactly what I mean when I say or write something.
e Pagan Temple said...
"Knowledge" Is Power-
?So who is this "CHILD" I should take time out from my defense of my first amendment rights to be defending? You say the word CHILD like you have a particular one in mind. Who is he or she?"
Uh, how about the CHILDREN this is INTENDED for???
"Of course, there is not one. There is only some generic illussion you have created in your mind as a representative allegorical myth to represent all the children of the world."
Ok, then explain to me why they wrote chapter four? What world do you live in that's just so perfect, except of course violations of the first amendment, of which you are the championing angel?
"Those of us who would prefer to spend our time defending the constitution of this country, including but not limited to the Frsit Amendment, are also defending those who are affected by it, including but not limited to children."
Yeah, sure, I'm glad the children of the world are just jumping for joy because of your zeal to protect a harmful, obscene, abusive and dare I say it DISGUSTING chapter on how to raise 'Wiccan' children.
"As such, I think I have done my part. I won't stand by silently and watch the constitution trashed for the benefit of protecting a myth."
Yeah, right.
"Or, for that matter, I won't stand by silently and watched it trashed for the benefit of protecting a real person, including a child, yes."
Yes, I know, as you've said so many times. Too bad the law doesn't mean anything to you.
"I'm one of these "big picture" kind of people, sorry if you think that's boring. Which, as I am sure we are all aware, you do not think I am boring. If you did, you would not bother to respond so strongly to such a "boring" one as myself."
Because, (I am showing tremendous restraint) YOU said I should be tied to a stake and burned alive. Now, I called people stupid, so I should die for that? You SAY you're protecting my rights, I have the right to say anything I want at any time according to you, but I should be murdered because I did just that? Hypocrisy? Now I should be weighted with rocks and drowned because you don't like what I write?
"Nor do I believe you when you say you are glad Fenix was not raped. I think if the truth was known, if you found out she was, you would be smacking your lips in glee at the thought of finally finding something to use against the Frosts."
ONE MOOOOOOOORE TIME!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, wrong again. I don't care about the other shit they wrote. I don't like it, I find it disgusting, but they can say it. What they CAN'T write, publish, distribute and sell is the kind of material in chapter four, yes, I know, you don't agree. I don't care what the Frost's do or don't do EXCEPT for chapter four. So you SEE, you are yet again WRONG.
As for Fenix not being raped, I'm sorry you're such an impotent fecking Dweeb that you can't have a REAL debate and that you have to resort to sick and nasty tactics, but you won't do anything about it so you remain in your own hell.
"I know it, and we all know-including, deep down, you."
Yes, yes, you are the great Zorba, the all seeing eye.
"Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I Fart at thee; for hate's sake I Fart my last Fart at thee."
As the world can see, you are a prince and coward among men.
Dont Forget PT you and i are Gay.. Homophobes.. That one made me laugh
http://www.communitydefense.org/cdcdocs/CDR/CDR--200605.htm#c1
http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/241428.html?thread=11269140
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/ceos/obscenity_stats.html
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/58695.html
http://cityofangels3.blogspot.com/2007/06/first-amendment-free-exercise-clause.html
All those links don't mean a fucking thing to me, bitch. I'll never read them. Let me put this to you in a fucking way even a fucking moron like yourself might possibly understand.
I don't like the fucking government. If the fucking government fell today, or tomorrow, while that would be bad and traumatic on certain levels, the government isn't the country-the people are. The government is, at best, a necessary evil.
The First Amendment, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, doesn't have a damn thing to do with the rights of the government. The constitution is about PROTECTING THE PEOPLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
Protecting the people, and individuals, from government excesses and abuses, is exactly what the constitution was meant to do. Of course, it's a flawed system. In order to get votes, politicians and lawyers have learned how to take advantage of morons and imbeciles, in order to tweak the consitution to where they can pervert it and subvert it how they want in order to acquire power through you brain dead fucktards.
They don't give a shit about kids, and they don't give a shit about you. They give a shit about nothing but their own power and wealth. And they use retardos like you to get it. And one of the first rallying cries they use is "it's for the good of the children".
Yeah, there are laws against child pornography, and rightly so. But this book obviously is not child pornography. If it were, the Frosts would have been prosecuted years ago.
Furthermore, anybody can object to any law they like. There are people all over the place that object to drug laws, prostitution laws, etc. So if I write in a book and encourage ritual prostitution as was practiced by the ancient temples of Aphrodite, and other such goddesses of the middle east, what do you think the government could do about it?
I say there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Sure, what I would be recommending would be against the law. Fine, I'll just put myself on record as demanding the laws be changed, at least for ritual purposes. Then what could the government do?
Uh, how about not a goddamn motherfucking thing?
And the Frosts are not even doing that. When have you ever heard of the Frosts ever demanding that child pornography laws be changed? When have you ever heard them demanding that child sex laws be amended to where any adult can have sex with any child he or she chooses as long as it is not against the child's will?
The answer, if you are honest, is you have never seen or heard the Frosts promote any such change of the law, nor will you ever.
See, this is all about power and aggrandizement to people like you. You think you are putting yourself on a higher level, and the rest of us will bow and scrape, or else you will run us out of the community like you are determined to do the Frosts. Well, guess again. I have my own tradition which is not dependent on yours or anybody else's approval, nor will it ever be.
Now, if you will kindly excuse me, I think I'm going to begin the planning stages of a book about the many possible ritual uses of marijuana, tobacco, and alcohol. I expect that it will be loads of fun.
I'm especially looking forward to the reactions from all the holier than thou pieces of shit. See, I want to run you fucktards back to the Christian rock you crawled out from under, and one way I will do that is by letting you know straight up you are not going to influence how I practice my religion. Nor are you going to run me or anybody else out of it.
The idea you even think that is remotely possible is an example of hubris in the extreme.
Oh, I don't know - Shadowhawk can be pretty happy.
Here's another link -
http://fenixmage.blogspot.com/
Shadowhawk-
"Dont Forget PT you and i are Gay.. Homophobes.. That one made me laugh"
Yeah, me too. And notice what the fucktard bitch said when she read that.
Knowledge Is Power
"The term Gay is incorrect, it would imply that you are happy.
Homosexual is the correct term."
Here we see an example of how yet another of the erstwhile followers of AJ Drew resorts to slander and homophobic slurs.
Hey, Fucktard bitch, you'd better get with the program. One of AJ's problems with the Frosts is that they are supposedly homophobic, which is exactly what you have now revealed yourself to be.
I don't know if you are a part of AJ Drew's circle or not, but if you are, and if he has any fucking integrity, he would kick you out of his circle NOW.
You are a fucking gay basher. I am not. On my blog, and in the comments sections of other blogs, I have supported and defended the concept of gay marriage. Not gay civil unions, the way the wuss faced prick ass Democratic Party supports, but actual gay marriage.
Therefore, you attempting to slam me and Shadowhawk by calling us homosexuals is not going to work with me, and I doubt it will work with Shadowhawk.
You are a fucking gay basher, and thus have proved my earlier points that you are a fucktard piece of shit.
Why don't you go back to Christendom? I'm sure you would fit right in with the congregation of the Reverend Fred Phelps. Mayve if you're lucky you might be able to lure a young lesbian girl out to the wilds of Montana and then you can nail her to a fence and crucify her like others of your ilk crucified Matthew Shepherd.
For the record, no I am not gay, or homosexual, or however you want to put it, nor am I even bi-sexual, not that it is any of your business.
I just believe in equal rights, though not special rights, for every American. You thinking you are insulting somebody by calling them a homosexual shows exactly what kind of sorry ass excuse for a human being you are.
So what's your point?
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