Sunday, April 6, 2014

How to Kill Wicca

The most recent series of attacks on us Frosts has become farcical in its wild accusations. Talk about creative fiction!

For those many of you who have defended us: We believe we owe you a "THANK YOU" and an explanation -- as if there were any explanation for current events, which are reaching new heights of weirdness.

Good Witch's Bible, that most-quoted and least-read book, has again become the basis for a flap and a furor in the Wiccan community, especially in Florida. It is mis-directed attention from a legitimate crisis in New Orleans whose victims deserve positive, healing energy. Nothing new there. For many years the book has served as a pretext to demonize the Frosts nationwide -- served people who have wrought precisely nothing in furtherance of the Craft, much less read GWB carefully with an open mind.

In recent weeks we Frosts have been accused (yet again) of pedophilia and sexual misconduct. There is no evidence to support either accusation. No social-services agency (eg. child protective services) or civil authority has ever accused us of any pedophilia. In fact, we say again: We are not pedophiles; nor do we endorse, encourage, or condone pedophilia in any form; nor do we support any pedophile who attempts to use Wicca as an excuse for any form of illegal behavior in any form.

At the time of New Witch's Bible's publication, we had the opportunity to review its contents with Carl and Sandra Weschcke of Llewellyn Publishing. The Weschckes were upset at charges brought by Herman Slater of the Warlock Shop in Brooklyn, New York. Basically Herman was using the Frosts, as so many have done before and since, to further his own agenda. After the conference with the Weschckes and the "trial" of the Frosts (attended by nearly four hundred [400] pagans), we agreed to change the book's title and to add those explanatory notes that the group meeting in Minneapolis thought advisable. "Change" here meant the removal of the definitive article (The) in the title, to be replaced by Good.

In Good Witch's Bible as it was first published and as it stands today, there is a clear statement on page 61 (a direct quote here):

    No formal initiation into the a group that practices the Great Rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen (18).

And we recommend that for female candidates the hymen be broken surgically by a physician rather than being a cause of pain during a first sexual experience.

If your group practices the Great Rite, then surely it is better to state that fact plainly than to hide behind euphemisms and try to blame others for things that those others have not done. And, surely, you do not have active members in your group under the age of 18. Living in the Craft means that you work daily to realize how sick and twisted are the "norms" of the culture in which you find yourself.

The claim that the Church of Wicca would not teach females by mail until those same females had given sexual favors to Gavin as a partner are simply salacious, hysterical fantasies. The School also has a strict no student under 18 policy. When the Church of Wicca was getting started up, Gavin was an international sales manager for Emerson Electric. He traveled extensively in Europe and in the far east. In fact, in one year he crossed the Atlantic 33 times. Why the odd number? He returned to the continental U.S. through India or Japan 9 times. In that period the School was run by Yvonne, mainly by herself but occasionally with the aid of a a (female) secretary.

After that period, when Gavin "retired", the School was given over almost entirely to the management of a capable secretary while the Frosts divided their time between writing books and the nearly full-time operation of running a feeder-pig farm in Salem, Missouri. Following that time, we continued with the practice of having the School run by a series of managers under close supervision. We have also had a couple of short-timers where that role was filled by a male, but about 99% of the time the manager was a female, hence the lack of legitimacy to any accusation that Gavin asked for sexual favors as an admittance requirement. At no time was the staff wholly pagan; in fact for the longest period of time (in New Bern, North Carolina) the lady who ran the School was a dedicated Roman Catholic. Of course all these staff regularly referred to the Frosts to help answer questions in the student mail.

Recently when the volume of mail had decreased and we had moved to Hinton, West Virginia, at first we continued with the female executive. Only in the past four years have the Frosts been back in full charge of its management. During the past three years Gavin has frequently been in and out of hospital beds for surgeries on his spine. Now he seems to be recovering from a situation in which the surgeons said he would never walk again.

The very mention of the phallus has always seemed to bug people, although such phalli are seen in every anthropological museum worldwide. We do not know why originally a phallus was used to break the hymen. Perhaps those ancient peoples were smart enough to know Perhaps those ancient peoples were smart enough to know that young women tend fall in love with -- to imprint on -- the mail who shares their first sexual experience. Whatever the reason, it is clear that a baton de commandment was historically used.

The decoding of the marks on the ishango bone, a 6000-year-old piece of bone showed how someone, presumably a woman, carved symbols on it representing moon times. The realization by Dr. Marshack that there were thousands of such carved bones in southern France and northern Spain, as well as hundreds scattered across Europe and even into Russia, revealed their widespread use. (Marshack, A. [1972] The Roots of Civilization: The Cognitive Beginnings of Man's First Art, Symbol and Notation. St. Louis: McGraw-Hill Book Company)The figures linked below shows the cyclical nature of the carvings on the bones. If you look at the top line of the picture, you can see the full moons and, below, the cyclical markings on the bone/baton itself, which clearly shows cycles -- and are the earliest known form of writing. This fact alone qualifies to be a matter of pride to women everywhere.

Thus when we Frosts put the phallus into Good Witch's Bible we were memorializing as a part of Craft heritage a practice considered to be 20,000 years old. The Cornwall coven that initiated Gavin in 1950 followed the practice. Again on Page 61 we clearly state: "The use of the phallus is usually dropped."

We keep records of everyone who has ever contacted the School, recorded for posterity every since those prehistoric days of KayPro computers. We have in folders information on who has been a student, and at least 90% of the letters they wrote are also preserved. Of course it has amused us over the years to look at the many spiritual descendants of the School who now claim their own unique "ancient" tradition. Of course we have never allowed anyone, not even the most qualified researchers, access to our files. For your amusement, when we recently moved the School's premises, the man who helped us move has had nightmares that he's being chased by filing cabinets; there were just so many to move!

A last thought occurs: Inmate plaintiffs called on the Church of Wicca in the Dettmer-v-Landon case in which Judge Butner reaffirmed the Frost version of Wicca as deserving all the rights, responsibilities and status of any other religion within the United States. Denigrators, please recall that the book you are denigrating was used to get us (and maybe you) that status of Federal recognition. The reason that we have not sued our detractors is quite simple: If we were to sue, the whole question of the religious status of the Wiccan community would naturally be revisited -- but remember that 90% of the population at large in this purported Christian nation would like to see Wicca and Wiccans gone.

Do you really want to risk that? We don't. That is the simple fact for our holding back, for our never having sued anyone ... YET ... for slander or for defamation of character or for libel.

For further resources on the Ishango bone, look here:

As a final thought, and a parting post script, why not turn your anger and frustration towards building community and helping others? There are so many ways that you could practice "An it harm none,...." without resorting to personal, false attacks. Here is a short list we came up with in a 5-minute brainstorming session:

1) Volunteer at the local animal shelter;

2) Foster a child or children;

3) Volunteer with the elderly;

4) Volunteer at hospice;

5) Adopt and clean your local roads;

6) Recycle;

7) Spend time reflecting on lunar cycles;

8) Teach children about the sun, the moon, and the stars -- help them learn to read a compass;

9) Begin a community watch program;

10) Dance!

11) Support local artists and artisans, and

12) Support a living, unsigned musician.

Click here for more information about the Frosts and their teachings.


Mydnite Cynderella said...

Thank you Gavin and Yvonne for posting this! I love and support you in your endeavors and am saddened that once again, someone needs publicity to sell their book or draw attention to their event. May this negativity slide past you like the pond scum it is. And may you continue to walk your path of happiness and peace. Abundant blessings to all.

Debra Ravenswood--Arkansas

Mydnite Cynderella said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shadowhawk said...

I have posted, and argued with many Pagans this week about this situation, but the ego of so many doesnt allow for rationality. I do hope people learn from this, that there is more than one side to an issue, not just theirs

Bob said...

Its pretty obvious that people with agendas have been attacking you for decades. Its also obvious that its about their own hateful agendas, not about Gavin and Yvonne. There is a great deal of hate very close to the surface of many pagans, and that is truly sad. They have learned nothing of the teachings of the old ways. May the Lord and Lady bless you and give you strength while the storm rages around you.

Blackbird said...

Advocating and instructing on a sexual act with a minor is supposed to be somehow better than acting upon said instruction? Interesting.

This nice little "no one should be initiated until 18" sounds all good and well, except that when you read the ritual it refers to them as "child"...not as initiate or adult. Also, the ritual advocate a father helping his female child place a wooden "phallus" into her vagina. It also advocates a mother breaking her daughter's hymen. I'm sorry, what isn't inappropriate about that?

Since a female and male hit puberty in their tweens, this essentially speaks for itself:

"When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven. This is a landmark in the child’s life, when he is made to understand his new capabilities and responsibilities. Wicca do not threaten their children into submission or bring them up as suppressed perverts. The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family." -

I hear excuses and backtracking. No taking responsibility.

Ruben GMaya said...

Yvonne and Gavin are my spiritual parents. It has been an honor and a privilege to be part of the family. It's times like these where I am thankful for such wise and compassionate Elders and Parents. They shine that light of wisdom that represents that aspect of unconditional love I am still learning at 61. I am retired military and still am all too ready to light the fires and grab the warlance to ride off into that emotional jihad of just retribution. Thank you, Goddess Yvonne and thanks to your Consort Gavin for calmer hearts.....

Witch n FL said...

Would you please post the differences in the text of the 2007 version and the 70's version.

Carol Maltby said...

"The School also has a strict no student under 18 policy."


Your website says very clearly that students under 18 are accepted with parental permission, and that those under 18 who do not have that permission can just pay you an extra $100. I recall seeing that statement on your website at least 7 years ago.

" Payment from Minors
The School will accept your registration fee, but it must be accompanied by a signed note of permission from your parent or guardian. Otherwise, we have to ask for a non-refundable down payment of $100.00."

Carol Maltby said...

There's a curious change in your biography listed on the FPG page at

Suddenly Gavin is saying, "Gavin Frost, BSc, PhD, DD Born, reared and formally educated in Staffordshire, England."

For about 30 years in all his biographical material, Gavin's been listing himself as having "BSc, PhD, DD" as his academic credentials. The Pagan biographers I've heard from so far all say that Gavin told them he got his B.Sc. through Ph.D from King’s College London. None of them tried to independently confirm it.

Yet when asked, Kings College London archives said they had no record of Gavin Frost or Sidney Gavin Frost ever attending that school. Their library database shows no dissertation by him.

According to Gerina Dunwich's book The Modern Witch's Complete Sourcebook, the DD degrees that the Frosts claim are ones they gave themselves. The Doctor of Divinity degree is the highest academic degree awarded in the UK, but is usually an honorary degree in the US.

I'm going to ask once again, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop stonewalling.

Gavin: Where did you get your B.Sc., M.Sc., and Ph.D degrees? Under what name did you get them? What is the title of your Ph.D dissertation, and in what university library will it be found?

Gavin and Yvonne: From which institution did you receive the Doctor of Divinity degrees you've been claiming since the seventies? Yvonne, how did you jump to doctoral status, after having only an associate's degree from a junior college?

Gavin Frost said...

I don't know why the acedemic listings are different on the fpg site than the ones we usually use. I gained my Phd credentials when working for the british department of atomic energy, the dissertation is still top secret.

Gavin Frost said...

Me again, no we don't need to post the differences they are printed in the Good Wwitch' Bible

Ruadhán J McElroy said...

Frost, you *do* realise that didn't actually answer Ms Maltby's questions: WHERE did you get these B.Sc., M.Sc., and Ph.D. degrees? UNDER WHAT NAME(S) did you get them?I also find it complete bollocks that you've refused to answer these two questions, which should be very simple, and are claiming your dissertation is "top secret". Then there's the additional question of Yvonne and how she somehow jumped to a doctoral status with only an associate's degree from a junior college.

Please, answer these simple questions. Now is the time to stand up to those who believe you're a pair of liars and charlatans and show you've at least got the credentials you claim, but somehow, you don't think it's even worth that little effort.

Qadishti Fest said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Qadishti Fest said...

I was not satisfied with my initial comment which is why I deleted it. This is what I said:

My son was raped by a Pagan priest, Waco White Wolf Tohausen, who later plead out to lesser charges of gross sexual imposition and pandering obscenity involving a minor. I would hardly call the issue a flap. It's a serious subject. I am just as interested in protecting those who haven't committed crimes as punishing those who have. In fact, in addition to having a child who was abused, as an educator and facilitator of programs and events of an adult nature, I am aware of the dangers of hysteria and the power of the rumor mill. So I appreciate your clarification.

I do not believe for a minute that any practice in modern Witchcraft is twenty thousand years old. That's a different issue for a different argument except in this respect. What was said could be construed as advocacy.

I will grant you that in describing historical practices, you venture onto thin ice; and what is simply being described can easily be interpreted as advocacy. In my opinion, it is the responsibility of a leader in the Craft to establish a BRIGHTLINE separating description from advocacy; and, in that respect, I feel the Frosts have failed. Attaching a disclaimer to a long published statement very late in the process impresses me as too little too late.

Moreover, the reference to hymen breaking whether by surgeon or any other means impresses me, as a concerned adult, a practicing Wiccan, and a High Priest as weird and wildly inappropriate. If nothing else, its inclusion in any text is worrisome and can easily lead someone to conclude that interests exists that may not.

I am inclined to believe that the Frosts expressed themselves imprudently and were NOT advocating pedophilia. It is a matter of public record that they have never been convicted of any crime or approached in connection with any criminal act; and therefore find myself in something of a middling position.

The words used in the original text trouble me as someone who read very similar ones by the man who raped my son. He, too, "explained" his "philosophy," and it took from 2004 to 2011 to bring him to a paltry sense of justice, BUT, while he obviously WAS a pedophile, I do not believe that these people are.

And so I challenge them not to merely post explanations on this blog, but also to step into the full light of public scrutiny and to use their considerable influence and connections to help STOMP INTO NONEXISTENCE the kind of abuse that tortured and continues to torment my son.

And as an educator and facilitator of adult Pagan programs and events, I encourage them to take whatever opportunity is afforded them to be actively involved in safeguarding the innocent from abuse and those innocently pursuing their adult interests from being falsely accused of misconduct.

Jennah said...

In complete agreement with Blackbird.

Response from the Frosts? Pfft, Poorly formed defense laced with logical fallacy and emotional blackmail towards their community and its dissenters. Irresponsible and in poor taste.

Renee Olson said...

I'm curious as to why in this statement you say that you do not accept minors but on your website you do. I'm a it concerned by this. I mean if you don't condone sex with children, why use the term child? Why not come out and say state once and for all .. Hey it was the 70's we were trying to use the times to become famous.

In the statement you say several times that you have never been accused of anything officially. My question would be, why wouldn't the fact that people think you approve of sex with children be enough to make you shout it from on high?

Qadishti Fest said...

One further comment, if I may. The title of the article impresses me as a bit egoistic. Questioning a leader is not threatening Wicca or any religion for that matter. In fact, not questioning in relation to an issue this important would be wholly unacceptable.

It's never going to kill Wicca to ask the Frosts a few questions. It's going to demonstrate, in fact, that when questions exist, we aren't afraid to ask them and insist upon their being answered. Such is the foundation of ethics.

Ruadhán J McElroy said...

Well, not to play Devil's Advocate, but there's a tribe in New Guinea, I believe, that may recognise men in their thirties as "child" because they still hadn't undergone a rite of passage to full manhood. That said, without any clarification from the Frosts that the word "child" was being used in such a way, any statement to that effect *now* or *after today* is really going to reek of backtracking to the Nth.

Shadowhawk said...

To the poster Above me, The Frosts owe YOU nothing, never have never will., so do us a favor lose the self righteous act.its very unbecoming.

Jennah said...

>> To the poster Above me, The Frosts owe YOU nothing, never have never will., so do us a favor lose the self righteous act.its very unbecoming.

With all due respect, when anyone appoints themselves or is appointed the head of school, a founder, an elder, what have you, they owe their community EVERYTHING.

Theirs is a position of SERVICE, not entitlement.

Shadowhawk said...

And they have been in Service to MANY for over 40 years, can you say the same..

Jennah said...

I don't have to say the same. I didn't appoint myself the founder or teacher of anything. I don't tout credentials I didn't earn. I don't collect a dime from anybody in the community.

The Frosts' responsibilities as teachers don't end because they've hit a milestone number in their tenure. As long as you call yourself a teacher and enjoy the privileges of a platform provided by your community, you are still in their service, and at times that service may require clarifications, reconsideration, and maybe an apology or two. I remain disappointed that over the past couple of weeks I have seen very little, if any, of the above. As was predicted: None of the fervent Frost supporters, nor the Frosts themselves have addressed any of the concerns that were at the heart of this controversy, nor have they taken any responsibility for same.

Here's something else I don't do: I don't gaslight my peers for calling into question the ethics by which I practice and carry myself. which is already more service to the world than most of you have provided in the past forty eight hours.

I worship at the altar of Truth and Reason and it's time you did the same.

Taffy Dugan said...

I'm wondering why you think when a woman's hymen gets broken that it's so painful that she needs a surgeon or a phallus to help her first. Why must you make such a big deal about it?

When my hymen was broken during my first sexual intercourse, it only hurt a tiny bit. I've asked all my friends and they agreed - just a little bit of pain, less than receiving a shot. Just a pin prick. No need for surgeons, no need for phalloi.

Jessica said...

Wow, it says it right there in black and yellow. And it is wondered why we doubt the words of these people? Well said, Carol: bullshit.

Bob said...

When I was growing up not long after so many American men had spent time in Europe, common language called French females "women" and American females "girls." Hollywood films and other media reflected that language differnece. Perhaps it was a recognition that American females just don't grow up and act like adults. The flock of "girls" whining and shrieking about Gavin and Yvonne clearly are not acting like adults. Their cow dung stinks like last week's fertilizer, and the would-be "white knights" who support them can't cut mama's apron string. Neither is it surprising that COG officers are behaving like crying children -- don't they always. Boo Hoo, your feelings are hurt. Boo Hoo. The big meanies said something you didn't like. Boo Hoo!

Grow up, or go back to your barns.

Carol Maltby said...

I asked the FPG webmaster on 5/27/08,

"What's the source for the statement on your website that Gavin Frost was formally educated in Staffordshire?

'Gavin Frost, BSc, PhD, DD
Born, reared and formally educated in Staffordshire, England'"

Diane replied, "This came directly from them."

Don't Shop at The Brick said...

To the frosts I say this.
Druids and then pagan then wicca. Druids were the founders of what is now known as wicca. Please stop saying that you are the founders as that is a complete lie. Wicca was around long before you, Druids and pagans have been around for thousands of years.

Susan Helwig said...

And their so-called disclaimer wasn't added until 20 years later. Thereby making it b*******.