Saturday, September 1, 2007

Garden and Travel including Ohio

Just came in from the garden. It's getting to be a desert because our rainwater barrel is empty and, given our fixed income, our city water bill won't stand any increase. Somehow in this long drought we've been having the bugs have decided to flourish, eating everything green in sight. Now if we could train 'em to cut the lawn while we were away, that would be the one positive aspect to the situation.
We're traveling this month to Arkansas for Pagan Pride Days, first to Little Rock for the weekend of September 8/9, and then on to Fayetteville for the weekend of 15/16. Our thanks to the good people who have gone to much trouble to make this happen. Then back home for a short time before we venture out to Toledo, Ohio for October 19/20/21. Come and meet us and press the flesh, or discuss your differences with us.
We thought we'd leave our readers with some ideas to think about while we're running around. Try these on.
Fanaticism masks doubt.
I never taught a man archery who did not ultimately use me as his target.
Accusation is not evidence.
When men make a desolation, they call it peace.
You should know that these quotes are very old. It might be entertaining to look them up.
Blessed be.

70 comments:

Shadowhawk said...

It looks like you folks have a busy schedule..Glad to hear it. And if i may this is one of my favorite quotes that i use alot when discussing That old christian maxim of.. We are right and everyone else is wrong

God is a comedian with an audience to afraid to laugh-Voltaire

Hope your travels go smoothly

Blessed Be

LawDam said...

10HC-1Y
It has been a long time ( no see)With Saturn leaving Leo the focus will change.
My favorite saying, "BE YOURSELF, EVERYONE ELSE IS TAKEN"
May the force be with you both!!

The Voice of Reason said...

Gavin and Yvonne,

We are so excited at the prospect of seeing both of you again!

We have you booked for television and newspaper interviews while you are here. And I've literally invited everyone who has an email address to attend your lectures and ask the questions that they are posting here.

Lets see how many of them actually show up in person or continue to hide in the anonimity of the internet.

May the Goddess watch over you,

Debra Ravenswood

ajdrew said...

I know about the event in Arkansas, could you tell me about the event in Ohio as I hope to visit you there.

Rhiannon said...

I would like to know more about the event in Ohio. Looked at the Pagan Pride Day events and none are listed for there with the official web site of PPD.
AK is a bit too far to travel these days.

Shadowhawk said...

Hmm Debra looks like One might get out from behind his blog , but i can bet his motivesarent pure. Isnt that right Aj. And Rhiannon just so you know Bangme.net is a SOCIAL NETWORKING site and i am on about 10 others, does that make evil.I do hope if either of you make it to Toledo that you behave yourselves. But you know i just dont think you will.And Rhiannon the Gavin hexing Herman Slater thing was to much. Can you pull a rabbit out of your ass. I would love to see that.Aj Drew and his Drewbies make me laugh

Rhiannon said...

Hi Tim Workman AKA Shadowhawk.
I see you have been reading my blogs. Thank you!
I can document everything I have written in that blog. I even gave the page number. The author has the proof in writing BTW so if you have a beef about that being said please feel free to write to the author of the book.

I never said that bangme.net of which you are a member made you evil. Your constant name calling and threats of violence towards people does though.
So Tim, if I don't "behave myself" what are you going to do? Beat up an old woman or would you rather have a discussion with my karate Master who is a 9th Dan????

Still I am more than willing to make an effort to have an adult conversation with the Frosts. I like doing my own research and not follow blindly. Being a sheep has its hazards. Sheep always get sheared.

So if the Frosts ever give the information as to where they are going to be I would love to have an adult conversation with them.



Quote "Who are we to know the mind of Gods?"

ajdrew said...

On Gavin Frost's cursings, hexings, or what ever you want to call it. I have no problem with using magic to harm a person who needs harmed just as I have no problem using a baseball bat to harm someone who needs harmed. What I think Rhiannon is getting at is that Gavin Frost appears to have been clearly willing to use force (magickal and physical) against people who TALK about what he wrote and then later states that people who TALK about what he wrote are not Wiccan because they say negative things, hence harming his book sales or reputation.

As I have said, as Rhiannon has said, we would LOVE to have a conversation with the man. We would LOVE to meet him when he speeks in Ohio. We are just waiting for someone to tell us where and when.

After all, Gavin has been very clear that folk who want to talk about the matter should come to events where he is speaking. Well, we want to come. We want to talk.

So where and when Gavin Frost? Where and when? I sware all I want to do is talk. No violence, not guns, no knives, nothing that is circulating on the internet about my intentions is accurate in respect to violence or threats. I just want to talk.

Shadowhawk said...

So Rhiannon im assuming by your illuding to your little kung fu master YOU are threatening ME with bodily violence..Looks like it to me. Hmm it seems Drews minions are just as capable of violence as any other. Thats to bad. Rhiannon how bout you furnish me with your name and info so i can press charges. And just because somethings written in a book.. as in the hans holzer chapter/ and the Witches Bible doesnt make it true

The Pagan Temple said...

This was posted on the first of the month. It's now the fifth. I would assume they were on the road by the second, as they seemed to suggest they were all but on their way as they posted this.

I have this strange idea they aren't going to be pulling off at any rest stops with their lap tops to take the time to answer questions in their comments. For that matter, they are probably going to be too busy to answer any comments when they get to where they are going, which I'm assuming they are there by now.

I'd like to meet them too. I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask them. Let's see if I can think of some right off hand.

Hmmmmm-Okay,

1. Is it true the two of you took vows of poverty? If so, why?

2. What do you think of the typical portrayal of Wiccans and Pagans in films and television?

3. Do you believe Pagans hurt their cause by promoting films such as "The Wicker Man"?

4. What advice would you have for an aspiring Pagan author who wants to write both Pagan oriented non-fiction and mainstream fiction? (hopefully something other than learn how to write).

5. Are you disturbed by the current trend amongst Wiccans/Pagans in many cases to go overboard in engaging in what I might call "diplomatic relations" with Christians? Do you feel this can be done in such a way that does not compromise our own unique philosophies?

6. Do you feel a great many of the current movements amongst Pagans-such as PUC, for example-are possibly driven in large part by people that want power over the pagan community in general.

7. How do you feel about the many Pagans who have a more conservative or moderate political philosophy? Do you consider this a good trend, or do you fear it could lead to further ruptures within the Pagan community?

8. Do you fear that the potential for growth of Wicca/Paganism brings with it the further potential for corruption as evidenced in the more "mainstream" religions.

9. I recently notice you defended the Roman Emperor Caligula, whom you seem to think was unjustly maligned. What is your evidence for this?

Okay, I'll make it a top ten with one final one, somewhat on the silly side.

10. Who is your favorite God/Goddess, and why?

Well, I guess that's it. No questions about dildos or ritual sex. Not interested, don't care. It's getting as boring as all these Republican politicians invoking Ronald Reagan in every speech they make. Or all these books from Llewelyn giving us yet another "original" way to cast circles and observe the Sabbats.

Rhiannon said...

Tim Workman
Kungfu????
I asked if you would like to have a talk. How is that offering violence?
On the other hand YOU have blatantly threatened violence and in writing.
You could make comments on my blog if you have a problem with what is written in the book and you have proof that it is false. Oh wait you were bannned from Pagan Nation for saying nasty things about the children on there so I guess you can't.
Press charges Tim.

As to the book. The author said he has the written letters. Write to him! Ask him! I think if it wasn't true and he couldn't prove it then he would not have written it because he could possiblly be sued of which then his publisher would not have published that section.

Back on topic.

I would truely like to talk with them so I could make up my own mind as to what kind of people they are.
But I am begining to believe they are not all that sincere about having new people meet them.

Shadowhawk said...

Dont lie Rhiannon on Pagan Nation i made no mention about children. i was banned for calling a moderator a bitch. So now lie some more. Aj banned me from HIS blog for saying his kids were ugly just like him.. And as far as threats against YOU ..post them prove it.. you cant. And dont type them up yourself because i know everything i ever said on Drews blog. So now what Rhiannon

Rhiannon said...

Tim
You make my day.
(smile)

You were allowed to stay on even after calling a few women the "c" word and "B" along with many others.
Telling people their children are gay is what got you thrown off.
You also say you didn't threaten anyone???? Your post to AJ Drew confirms that you did. There was no lack of meaning in your words.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/18/fucking-gimps/
shadowhawk Says:
"July 18th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
And now back to Aj.. you better pack a lunch and bring your butt buddys with you to the courthouse cause when the Frosts bury you i wanna get an assault charge for adding more to your brain damage.. And to the rest of you ignorant fucks.. try and get me.. it isnt gonna happen..Lmao"

You also stole another persons idenity claiming to be a Tim Alexander when you were not.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/18/fucking-gimps/
tjalexander Says:
July 31st, 2007 at 4:56 am
"Shadowhawk:you accepting the accusation of being me was uncalled for, regardless of the motives."

shadowhawk Says:
July 31st, 2007 at 7:03 am
"Hi Tim, yes i suppose i shouldnt have done that,i do apologize for that and the inconvienence it may have caused you.As far as Aj Drew is concerned i believe the man has no scruples. I do hope he takes down your info."

So then you challenged me to find you and I did (Which wasn't hard since I have friends in the Fed Gov)
Rhiannon Says:
July 31st, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I am not going to put the real personal info out but here is some of the easier found stuff….

http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_pa.html?a=usmo&id=222067

Sylvanus Treewalker
Located in: Springfield, Missouri

Dislikes: Mean people War.. and closed mindedness
***************************
http://witches.meetup.com/cities/us/mo/nixa/
****************************
http://shadowhawk.covenspace.com/blog/2007/01/31/shadowhawk_here
****************************
http://www.keltria.org/hengehap/HH55/HH55-PUB.pdf
Missouri-Springfield Area
Heartland Study Group
Please Contact
Sylvanus93@hotmail.com
or the Henge Office for further information
Rhiannon Says:
July 31st, 2007 at 2:40 pm
This is not the personal infomation but it is the easily found stuff.
****************************

http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_pa.html?a=usmo&id=222067
Personal Profile for…

Sylvanus Treewalker

Magickal Path: Wotch/Druid
Age Group: Adult
Occupation: n/a
Gender: Male
Relationship Status: Single
Sexual Orientation: Straight
Located in: Springfield, Missouri

Likes: likes fests drumming guitar. poetry mead and fun friends the bgods and animals children and smiles

Dislikes: Mean people War.. and closed mindedness

Sylvanus Treewalker’s Profile…

Pagan male living in Springfield Missouri.. Celtic ecclectic coven witch and former Keltrian druid. Druidry has become my focus.. Loves all things celtic.. Music culture and people.. is Ordained clergy in missouri and initiate of Greenleaf coven. Is going back to school to majpr in wildlife management with a minor in Cultural anthropology. Im single aqnd have many interests.. The pagan community is important in my life.. not much to say if you want to know more get in touch
****************************

http://www.keltria.org/hengehap/HH55/HH55-PUB.pdf
Missouri-Springfield Area
Heartland Study Group
Please Contact
Sylvanus93@hotmail.com
Or the Henge Office for further information
http://witches.meetup.com/cities/us/mo/springfield
***************************
Just for a laugh
http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=Sylvanus93@hotmail.com&go=Search&form=QBRE


Now tell me again who lies Tim.

(I don't know if I will be able to respond for a few days to any of this since I am going to be a bit busy)

I do encourage anyone who would like to post any facts about the Frosts regarding the comments made in the book by Hans Holzer to please contact me. I am more than willing to put up facts that can be proven. In fact I encourage it!
http://rhiannon.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/09/04/other-opposition-to-the-frosts/

Shadowhawk said...

You post info that anyone can easily obtain, secondly i never personally named YOU in any thing i posted SO I SAY YOU LIE. so now what. Face it lady you are beat.PLUS i have it posted right here on this blog section that YOU threatened me. Respond to that

Bubba said...

Rhiannon said:
"So Tim, if I don't "behave myself" what are you going to do? Beat up an old woman or would you rather have a discussion with my karate Master who is a 9th Dan????"

Sounds to me like she is telling you she can & will defend herself.

Judging by some of your posts on PN and elsewhere, I wouldn't put beating up an "old woman" past you.

Shadowhawk said:
"PLUS i have it posted right here on this blog section that YOU threatened me."

If what is printed here is your only "proof", nobody but a few braindead FROSTed Flakes will ever believe you.

Shadowhawk said...

Looks like Bubba can read.. DERR

Bubba said...

"Looks like Bubba can read.. DERR "

Ooo nice comeback, for a !st grader. LMFAO

Shadowhawk said...

Is it hard to breath with your head up Drews ass?

Bubba said...

"Is it hard to breath with your head up Drews ass?"

Wow!! You almost made it to junior high that time!

Keep going, you might make it to the grownup's table in a year or two.

Shadowhawk said...

This coming from a man named BUBBA..get a grip.

Bubba said...

"This coming from a man named BUBBA..get a grip"

Bubba def.-Big brother. Nickname usualy bestowed by a younger sibling.
Purpose of a Bubba- defense of said sibling from outside bullying.

Why I use this name- I have heard Wicca described as a large family(albeit a dysfunctional one).
As part of my path, I have taken on the defense of the very young,the weak, and the feeble minded (though in your case I'll make an exception) among us.

Rhiannon said...

Shadowhawk said...
You post info that anyone can easily obtain, secondly i never personally named YOU in any thing i posted SO I SAY YOU LIE. so now what. Face it lady you are beat.PLUS i have it posted right here on this blog section that YOU threatened me. Respond to that"

Ah Tim.
You once again brought a smile to my day.
1. I never said you named me in anything.

2. Asking if you would like to have a talk with my karate Master is not a threat it is an invite. Any one can see that.
If you still feel you have a leg to stand on in court then please do what you feel you have to do. Or just stop with the petty little arguments.

3. So what about the threat of violence to AJ Drew. You have not addressed this issue. In fact you are trying to nullify it by claiming things that are not real/have never been said.

You need to address the issues.
1. Your threat of adding to AJ Drew’s brain damage. (of which you were warned about by a police officer twice)
2. You saying that the children on Pagan Nation are gay.
3. You calling women names all the way from bitch (me) to cunt and whore (name shall remain anonymous) (Again you were warned by a police officer about doing this)
4. You are making accusations against an author of lying.
5. I asked for proof that this author is lying of which you still have given none.

As to my lying...about what????? Everything is in writing and I have posted most of it. It doesn't make you look good though.

So what other little petty lies are you going to come up with next Tim?
Oh and as to your information. Yes all that is out on the net. Even your police record……… (wink)

The Pagan Temple said...

Shadowhawk-

I remember once Gavin or Yvonne one posted they didn't know how to upload photos. Is it possible they don't know how to set comment moderation on this blog? I think if they did so, that would settle this crap.

Really, debate is fine up to a point, but it's starting to get way out of hand. I understand they might not want to do that, but really, if they don't, this is the kind of stuff they are going to be seeing on every post they ever make, regardless of what the topic is.

Enough is enough. A lot of people might want to read this blog, and most of them don't care anything about taking sides in this little witch war.

And the more ridiculous the rhetoric gets, the less likely is anyone to care. I know I quite caring quite a while back.

A little hint-when people shout at the top of their lungs, chances are it's because deep down inside they know nobody really gives a shit about what they have to say. Ironically enough, the more they shout,the less they tend to give a damn.

Shadowhawk said...

First off to Bubba, your defense of Aj Drew is pathetic, hes not weak hes calculating.

To Rhiannon, i never denied what i said to Aj about the court thing.. I NEVER said his kids were gay.. i said ugly. blog posts can be altered you know, and i believe Aj did, also I dont have a Police record so now lie some more .

And to Pagan temple this is war , and i will act, and post and speak accordingly, if you dont like my posts simple, dont read them

Bubba said...

"First off to Bubba, your defense of Aj Drew is pathetic, hes not weak hes calculating."

I am not defending AJ,he's a big boy & can take care of himself.

I am defending the kids who have been or will be hurt because of the Frost's words.

But, as usual, you try to make this about AJ.

Please grow up.

The Pagan Temple said...

Shadowhawk-

The reason I addressed you in the comment specifically, is because I was under the impression that you knew the Frosts personally, but I think I may have had you confused with somebody else. Sorry about that.

My comment wasn't meant as criticism of you. It was meant to try to tone this shit down and was mainly meant for the people that have been spamming this blog.

And that is what this crap amounts to-spam. If anyone might be interested, you might want to go to Bloggers terms of service, and I'm sure you will find a pertinent definition of the term.

If I'm not mistaken, constant spamming of a site for the purposes of harrassment, or any other reason, can result in termination of service, to those who have blogger accounts, and it can also result in a persons ipo number being blocked.

I think that would be an appropriate measure in this case, and I strongly encourage the Frosts to look into it.

Again, I don't give a shit about this issue, and I would be willing to bet that most people feel the same as I do. I quit giving a shit about this issue way back in 1994, when Janet Reno used "for the good of the children" as an excuse to summarily engage in the massacre of over a hundred American citizens whose beliefs didn't meet the governments approval.

Again, enough is enough.

The Voice of Reason said...

You're right Pagan Temple, the Frost's won't be pulling over and checking their email from their laptop or downloading it on their Blackberries. But, I did print your questions off and will address them with Gavin and Yvonne when they arrive here on Sunday.

You're also right about Janet Reno and the US Govenment. I don't think any of us realized what a dangerous man Drew and now apparently now his wife Aimee Scholmann/Carpenter/Drew was until this week.

Their contacting of the Little Rock Police here in AR on Thursday and advising them that pedophilic materials were going to be distributed in an Arkansas park was a very dangerous thing to do.

Fortunately for us, we are well known by our local PD's and work well with our city officials and administrators. They love having the Pagans in their parks! The Frosts have been here before, there were no problems then and the police did not feel they would be a problem now. They had enough rational thought to write the Drews off as another bunch of "whack jobs" and are investigating their actions for possible harrassment charges.

But, what would have happened to a newly organized PPD who wasn't as well established in their home towns as we are? Would they have been arrested? Would the PPD have been cancelled? Would the FBI come in and burn their houses to the ground? What about the children of the organizers? Would they have been burned in the fires because they didn't conform to what the Drew's consider moral, religious or social Wiccan behavior? Pagan Temple is RIGHT, enough is enough.

The Coordinators of the Arkansas Pagan Pride Days (whether PPP,Inc affiliated or not), henceforth referred to as the "Coordinators" have determined that AJ Drew, Aimee Scholmann/Carpenter/Drew, pagannation.com, or anyone associated with The Drew's or Pagan Nation have at no time ever been appointed to act as representative of any organization in regards to the management, coordination, promotion or hosting of a Pagan Pride Day in AR.

The Coordinators have determined that AJ Drew has no authority to direct, rule or command any member, vendor, organizer, coordinator, participant or guest of an AR PPD in any manner thereof.

Henceforth, all emails, web sites, blogs and other digital media being sent by The Drews, Members of the Pagan Nations or anyone dircted by The Drews or Pagan Nations are being collected by a group of AR attorneys in preparation of a legal suit in regards to his actions directed toward the AR Pagan Pride Day events.

These are not threats and should never be misconstrued as such.

Love and light,

Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
Fayetteville, AR

Shadowhawk said...

Bravo, Bravo.. I commend you Debra on this action being taken by Arkansas Pagan Pride Coordinators
Its about time

Mom-E said...

How is it a dangerous thing to do to tell the truth to a police department? Concerned parents telling the truth to law enforcement is now harassment? Please.

The Pagan Temple said...

Voice Of Reason (Debra)-

Thank you very much for that. I would look forward to reading the Frosts response on these or anything else. This could be a very good, interesting, and even an entertaining blog, and still can be, despite the efforts of these spammers to ruin it.

And like I said, that is what their crap amounts to-spam, pure and simple. It's one thing to make a criticism here and there, but when people persist in deluging a blogs comments section with constant threats, harassment, and intimidation, there is no other name for it but spam, which is against Bloggers terms of service and might even be against the law.

There gets to be a point when one person's or one group of peoples freedom of speech becomes an infringement on other people's rights. I seem to feel that you and I, and others, should be able to come to this blog, read it, discuss the posts,and maybe even disagree from time to time, hopefully in a "grown up" manner.

But this constant demagoguing on this one issue by these people, regardless of what the topic of the post is, is purely meant to antagonize the Frosts, and also all the rest of us.

I think if Gavin was to mention something in a post about casting a circle with salt, some of these people would accuse him of using the salt shaker as a dildo. It's gotten to that point, where it's beyond absurd.

Bubba said...

You people amaze me.
How the fuck can you draw any comparison between this & the Davidians.
Are Gavin & Yvonne holed up with an arsonal, ready to shoot officers of the law? Nope, don't think so.
Does AJ Drew have the power that Reno had to cause such a disaster? Again, nope.

"I quit giving a shit about this issue way back in 1994, when Janet Reno used "for the good of the children" as an excuse to summarily engage in the massacre of over a hundred American citizens whose beliefs didn't meet the governments approval."
So, because of one government fuck-up, you stopped caring what our "leaders" do to children in the name of our religion? How sad (or stupid haven't decided which).

Shadowhawk said...

Its been 35 years and no one has accused the Frosts of doing anything remotely like what was in that chapter , once again you just dont get the idea of innocent till proven guilty.No arrests, no victims, nothing. Why is that. Most likely because it never happened

Mom-E said...

Shadowhawk,

What is so difficult to understand about people protesting *the writing* and questioning whether *the writing* is unprotected speech under the terms of 'incitement'? People may question whether the Frosts did what they wrote about- but that is to be expected given how it is written- as an instructional for what they propose to be Wiccan teachings. If they didn't do it or advocate it being done- why write about it in the manner that they did (as an instructional)? They say they didn't- OK fine. There is where 'innocent until proven guilty' comes into play. However- it is patently clear that they DID write what they wrote and continue to sell it. People object to it and question whether it is legitimately protected speech. People have every right to question whether this work is or is not responsible, ethical, academically sound- and yes- even whether or not it is in fact *legal* under US law.

Whether they did or didn't DO what they wrote about isn't even the main issue here. The issue is that they irresponsibly appear to stand behind the writing and continue to sell it with a weakly worded forward and equating what was written to fathers bathing daughters and utilizing poor academics (such as fictional novels- Clan of the Cave Bear) to support their instructions.

So whether they did it or didn't do it really isn't the issue that most are concerned with here.

The Voice of Reason said...

Several of you are still missing the point.

The bottom line is that to be a TRUTH and to claim that it is a TRUTH one must have substantial evidence. Yet AJ Drew and his wife Aimee took it upon themselves to contact law enforcement officials and allege that the coordinators of two Pagan Pride events in Arkansas were spreading pedophilic materials in parks in Arkansas. And what did the Drews base their allegations on? The possibility that the Frost’s MIGHT have brought a copy of the Good Witches Bible with them to the Pagan Pride event?

The Drews did not validate their allegations and thus have laid their own heads on the chopping block. The Drews want their day in court, he shall have it.

For those of you who continue in your support of the Drews personal vendetta, here is something for you might want to stop long enough to consider. Hitler rose to power because he arrived in the political arena at a time when the German population, after being dragged into economic ruin by the World War I and the Weimar Republic, felt they needed a strong leader for the reconstruction of their nation. The German people blindly followed Hitler to the point of casting their own common sense and moral standing to the winds, thus committing horrendous atrocities against mankind. Many of those people, who only wanted a better world for their families and children, stood trial in Nuremburg because they championed Hitler’s vision for a master race.

The Drews will shortly be answering to a court of law in regard to their allegations and at that time they will be asked to provide the proof that makes these allegations into TRUTHS.

As I stated earlier, the legal document calls for the subpoena of “all emails, web sites, blogs and other digital media being sent by The Drews, Members of the Pagan Nations or anyone directed by The Drews or Pagan Nations”. That means the contents of this blog will shortly become evidence. Do you really want your comments and email address (thought which the IP and MAC addresses of your home computers can be traced) as evidence in these proceedings? Are you prepared to stand there with the Drews and provide evidence in support of your allegations?

It’s a sad, sad day in Pagan Land and we can all thank the Drews for it.

Praying for love and light,

Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic

Mom-E said...

Debra, please remember that includes comments, threats etc. from persons such as Shadowhawk, yourself and those who are in support of and defense of the Frosts. Even if they delete comments, some people have copies saved I'm sure. It also brings to light the IP addresses etc. from those who have threatened or insinuated threats against Mr. Drew and those who have voiced concerns about the material that the Frosts have written.

Yes- it IS a sad day when people put up all this fuss against people raising legitimate concerns about a book, utilizing their Constitutional rights to freedom of speech by means of critical commentary. If one wants to argue freedom of speech- they forget it works both ways- critical commentary included- even if one doesn't like what is being said. If the Frosts don't care for people questioning or expressing outrage against their writings- then they should have either not written them in the first place or have provided adequate response to the raising of the concerns.

... Do you *really* think that the Frosts are going to get a fair day in court in a predominantly Judeo-Christian society when the question of whether or not they are presenting pedophilic material is raised? If they want to go that route- they should really consider that what they are doing may not be in *their* best interests. Don't get me wrong- I wholeheartedly am against what they wrote in that book- but I sympathize with the idea that such a case may well take up the remaining time that the Frosts have on this earth (recognizing that they are in their winter years and such things may well progress through to the Supreme Court system and almost certainly would not be a quick trial issue.

The bottom line remains- if they don't believe it, don't stand behind it, and don't continue to endorse it as people are taking it- then why not just stand up and CLEARLY, DECISIVELY and without excuses and justifications SAY that they were wrong- or that what they really meant was... or ANYTHING along that line?

The TRUTH is that it's very clear that the Frosts wrote what alot of readers classify as an instructional that details the inappropriate and illegal sexual initiation of minors. Later the forward was added which many believe to be weakly worded and not at all adequate to alleviate the concerns over the content. Do you disagree with that? And if you do NOT feel that that is the case- why not?

As to this blog- if the Frosts did not want comments, this platform offers comment moderation- and if they cannot figure out how to utilize that, they can easily step in and tell people to stop posting. Or- ask someone who can instruct them in how to set up said comment moderation.

Frankly, it seems to me that most judges would laugh a case like this regarding Drew's actions out of their courtroom. It amounts to a school yard squabble based on someone saying something that someone didn't like. Seems to me the response to EVERYONE would be something along the lines of "Grow up". Now- the issue of determining whether or not what was written is protected speech or whether it falls under 'incitement' or other aspects of unprotected speech despite the disclaimer may get quite a bit more attention. Who knows.

Speaking of 'sad days'- I'm personally rather sad that those who DO claim to 'know' and 'understand' the Frosts on this issue haven't encouraged them to appropriately address the concerns raised, and have instead resorted to namecalling, threats and other nastiness. It seems to me that a real friend to them would encourage and present a responsible and mature response to this issue.

Shadowhawk said...

Nasty isas nasty does. What do you call an act of sympathetic magick with the intention to Ritually Murder someone, which isexactly what his sacrifice of caring is.And i have been off Drews blog for just about 2 months.I started my attacks on Pagan Nation .com when i was harrassed on there site for being supportive of the Frosts . So considering that action i took the gloves off and followed to Drews own blog. He wants war, its what him and anyone associated with him will get. And as far as Those who support the Frosts trying to get them to retract or censor there writings its not up to us. I stand behind them on that point. There are many worse books out there who havent been censored. The Bible . The Satanic Verses, Final Exit, The Anarchists Cookbook..So why should anything by The Frosts be censored. And my posts are not the problem. I have not threatened anyone here, i have merely made my thoughts known. If you disagree fine. But dont blame what Drew is doing on me

Mom-E said...

Actually- Drew has detailed exactly what his original intent was regarding this 'sacrifice'. Here is a link to where he talks about it. People are up in arms about *nothing*. People have (or have at least claimed to have) undertaken their own harmful magic against Drew based on what they THOUGHT was going on rather than the realities of the situation.

http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/61877#Post61877

As for 'war'- I think this is silly to 'war' over. Sensible people see a problem that concerns them regarding the ethics of sexuality and children and they are speaking out against it. Now- if anyone wants to talk about the *issue*- I'd encourage it- but almost everyone supporting the Frosts and attacking Drew's stance isn't discussing the issue- they are just maligning a concerned father who is passionately objecting to what looks very much to be an instructional on child rape. Or has been using weak straw men psuedo-academics to support the writing.

What is Drew trying to do? I'd wager he's looking for the same thing any concerned parent would be looking for- a public apology from the Frosts for allowing this debacle to go this far, a cessation of that book being sold (or selling a revised edition *without* the material detailing the sexual initiation of children (referencing their use of the term 'child' and such phrases as 'onset of menses' and 'at the earliest possible age' etc.) Taking a responsible and proactive approach to addressing this (by the Frosts) would IMO go a long way toward quieting the objections or even coming to a common ground. I can't speak for Drew, but for myself and for alot of others? I think it's what people are looking for.

Do they HAVE to do anything? Well- not right now, but I'm neither lawyer nor judge- if it went to court- who knows what would happen. However, I think that responsible, ethically minded persons would look at this- see the harm that is being done and has been done and possibly COULD be done and voluntarily take responsible proactive measures to 'fix' what has gone wrong and what people are in an uproar over. There is no shame in admitting that one has made a mistake and making amends for it. But not doing so leads one to believe that they stand behind it as others are reading it- and that is why this has gone on as long as it has and to the degree that it has. I think EVERYONE is tired of this at this point.

The Pagan Temple said...

The point is, when commenters deluge a blogs comment sections with comments that are not appropriate to the subject of the post in question, or is irrelevant to that post-you know, that has absolutely nothing to do with that post-then that is spam.

Spam is not necessarily limited to cheesy sales pitches. It can also be defined as comments made with the intention to harass and intimidate.

It is against blogger's terms of service. You people are not wanted here. Don't you get that? You are not changing anybody's minds. You are not going to change anybody's minds. Why don't you accept that and move on?

The answer would seem to be that you don't respect our rights to read this blog. Well, I hate to be the one to tell you, but if worse comes to worse, we don't really have to read the comments section. They are just an extra bonus feature of the blog. What is important is the blog itself.

Yeah, Gavin and Yvonne can set comment moderation. In fact, guess what? They already have. They have set it to where you can not comment anonymously. They had to have set it purposely for that. If they had not intentionally done so, then anyone could comment, anonymously or otherwise, by default.

The fact that they have evidently chosen this route tells me volumes about them. It tells me that, despite the obvious fact they, like all of us, are not perfect, they have a hell of a lot more integrity than you spammers will ever be able to muster, either individually or collectively.

Again, you are engaged in the act of spamming this blog, for the purposes of harassment and intimidation of not only the Frosts, but of the Frosts readers.

If you think you are going to win anybody over to your side by engaging this conduct, let me give you a little piece of advice-

think again!!!

Speaking of covens,by the way, what is the name of you people's coven, The Sacred Order Of The Obnoxious Trolls?

ajdrew said...

It seems Debra Ravenswood is now trying to silence folk by threatening not only me with civil action, but you as well. If you believe that book (or any) is a pedophilic instructional which is not protected speech, then you believe it is criminal to sell it where selling a pedophilic instructional is criminal. You are bound by common decency an in many cases, by the law itself, to report crimes which you believe have occurred or are about to occur.

Were the Frosts arrested for selling the book? I do not believe they sold the book. Have they sold them previously at PP events? I don’t think the signed and dated copies are forgeries.

I believe Pagan Pride Arkansas and the Frosts got the message, don’t sell that book. I believe Pagan Pride Arkansas and the Frosts will not be selling that book at any festivals ever again. You see something someone said here or in my blog struck me. They said the book was legal. The thing is, there is no certification for a “legal” book any more than there is for an “innocent” person. All people are presumed innocent until proven otherwise. All books are presumed “legal” (protected speech) until proven otherwise. Not that such has sunk in to my big head, I understand folk who defend the Frosts. No really, I do. They say the book has not been proven to be a pedophilic instructional. Now I read the thing and I am 100% sure. But a court has not decided yet.

The only way for that to occur is if the Frosts distribute the book in a location where the prosecutor or city attorney (or who ever makes the call) feels as do I and many others who have read the book. For this reason, I think the Frosts are about to announce that the book is no longer available.

Frankly, as Debra Ravenswood (the organizer of next Saturday’s event in Arkansas) has not stated that the book was sold, I am thinking the thing was not sold & I think it will not be sold next weekend. As I feel the book is a clear threat to children, I count this as a victory and I think so should everyone else who feels the book is a pedophilic instructional.

ajdrew said...

BTW: Concerning commenting in this blog. If the Frosts do not welcome commenting, they can turn the feature off or block individuals. I have recieved no indication that I am not welcome to comment, so I will continue.

Carol Maltby said...

On almost every page at their wicca.org website, the Frosts say, "As usual, we invite your comments. We are not trying to offend anyone or scorn
their tradition, so please be constructive. Our hope is that we all may arrive
at a shared understanding of what we are doing."

Most of us have come here in good faith hoping for a dialogue with the Frosts, and answers to our questions, in hope that they would be in public and on the record. The Frosts have refused to answer any of our questions.

Gavin claims that he got a B.Sc. and Ph.D from Kings College London. They say they have no record of him attending the school, and there is no dissertation by Gavin listed in their library holdings, where a copy would customarily be found. Gavin and Yvonne have listed DD (Doctor of Divinity) degrees on their biographical material for over 30 years. It appears that these degrees were ones they made up for themselves. I'd like us to arrive at a "shared understanding" of why the Frosts have been claiming fraudulent credentials for decades.

I'd like to know just when the Frosts formally renounced father-daughter incest with handmade dildos, a practice they state in writing was one of "the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca."

Ellen Evert Hopman, in her interview with the Frosts for People of the Earth, asked whether they "still advocate the ritual defloration of adolescents." Gavin's answer was not that he understood now that ritual defloration of children was bad, but that they were no longer allowed to advocate that.

Here's another question that's come up, from the Frost's website, a statement dating back to 2003:

"Our Mission Statement: To purchase and provide green spaces in cities where people can worship as they please."

http://www.wicca.org/church/mission.html

Have any of these green spaces been purchased and made available? What are their addresses?

The Voice of Reason said...

Again, you miss the point. The FROSTS will pursue action against the Drews, that is their concern and the concern of West Virgina courts. But this is not about the Frosts.

This is about the Drews allegations that Pagan Pride Day event Coodinators in Arkansas were spreading pedophilic materials in Arkansas parks.

The Drew did not do their homework when they tore off on their latest mindless campaign to stop the Frosts by any means and thusly attacked and slandered a completely legal, religious groups right to assembly and free speech.

The police departments, group sites and others who were harrassed by the Drews actions had no problems forwarding the information the Drews sent to Arkansas.

I don't care whether you continue to blog here or not, it's not my site. I'm just saying everything collected on this site will go in front of a judge and jury, therefore your names could be added to the subpeona list if the attorneies feel your actions constitute harrassment.

Incidentally, in the State of Arkansas, is you are subpeonaed and do not appear, you are considered to be in contempt of court. Arkansas WILL extradite so in regards to this, state boundries are not an issue.

Again Drew, your 5 degrees left of center. Harrassment and filing a false report in Arkansas is criminal action. Terroristic threatening, is a felony.

And again, Drew what we do in Arkanasa is none of your business. Whether you continue to blog here, attempt to defame us on Pagan Nation, or anywhere elst that will post your garbage, I don't care.

You're own words will convict you.

Debra Ravenswood, Coordinator
Heart of the Ozarks PPD Picnic
September 15, 2007
Fayetteville, AR

"Gavin and Yvonne Frost will be appearing to answer your concerns and questions in regard to the Drews allegations. Be there, or be uninformed."

The Pagan Temple said...

Carol Maltby said-

Here's another question that's come up, from the Frost's website, a statement dating back to 2003:

"Our Mission Statement: To purchase and provide green spaces in cities where people can worship as they please."

http://www.wicca.org/church/mission.html

Have any of these green spaces been purchased and made available? What are their addresses?

September 10, 2007 5:05 AM


I say-

Who gives a rats ass? That was four years ago. How many acres do you think they could have brought in four years time? I don't care if they haven't brought any.

It's a stated desire, or a goal. So what? There's a lot of things I'd like to do to. If I say what they are, should people bitch and moan because I haven't done them in four years?

I'd like to one day research an ancient church in Spain, the inner walls of which are lined with skulls, to see if it might have back in the distant past been an ancient temple of Ares.

Maybe one day I will do it. Maybe one day I won't.

I'd like to develop a ritual that will influence the outcome of the next Kentucky Derby.

Maybe one day I will do it. Maybe one day I won't. (If I do, though, I will probably keep that one to myself).

There are a lot of things I'd like do. If I listed them all, there is no way I could come close to doing half of them.

You are nitpicking. For you to complain about something somebody says they would want to do, or that they intend to do,and then bitch because they haven't done it in four years, is the perfect definition of nitpicking, isn't it?

I think it's a worthy goal myself. Maybe one day in years to come, The Church will do it. Maybe they won't.

Maybe they will address it in a post one of these days. If they do, I know I would be interested in reading about it. I'd like for me and the other readers to be able to comment about it too, and discuss it with them.

I have this strange idea, though, that our comments on this subject, as all others, would be drowned out by yet more spam comments from trolls such as yourself bitching about dildos and alleged ritual sex with minors.

Actually, I'm not being fair to you. Of all of AJ's fellow members of The Sacred Order Of The Obnoxious Trolls, you at least have an original bitch. You'd better be careful, you might get drummed out of the circle if you don't stay on the dildo topic.

The Pagan Temple said...

Carol Maltby says-

On almost every page at their wicca.org website, the Frosts say, "As usual, we invite your comments. We are not trying to offend anyone or scorn
their tradition, so please be constructive. Our hope is that we all may arrive
at a shared understanding of what we are doing."

Most of us have come here in good faith hoping for a dialogue with the Frosts, and answers to our questions, in hope that they would be in public and on the record. The Frosts have refused to answer any of our questions.

I say-

Who gives a rats ass? They haven't answered my comments either. They haven't responded to Debra Ravenswoods comments, and she is a friend of theirs. They haven't responded to Shadowhawk or any of the other people here that are their friends, supporters, etc.

Why the hell should they respond to you if they don't respond to us? What makes you think you're so damned special?

Get over yourself. You're no better than the rest of us.

You being OOOHHH SOOOOO CONCEEEERRRNNED ABOOOUT THE CHIIIILDREN

doesn't impress me a fucking bit, nor do I suspect it impresses anybody else.

The Pagan Temple said...

Anytime I hear people going on about the welfare of the children, the first thing I worry about, and sometimes the thing I worry about most, is the welfare of the children.

I knew a woman in Covington Kentucky, who had a teenage daughter she was having problems with. Nothing major, just the usual, typical teenage bullshit they all go through.

The woman thought it would be a good idea if she was to go to "The Boys And Girls Club". She thought it would help her grow up and would be a good experience for her.

Within half a years time, maybe less, the girl ended up falling in with a street gang, and was on drugs. She ended up being shuffled from first one teenage group home to another.

That's what these "caring" organizations do to kids-they turn them into whores, bitches, and sluts.

That is, incidentally, what trolls do to kids. They kidnap them, take them down into the depths of their own rotten hall, and bring back in their places something that is not quite human. Something that is sub-human, you might say.

Anytime somebody tries to get something going based on that old chestnut, "it's for the good of the kids"-sorry, I have to wonder what the angle is. It's usually not good. More often than not, it's about their own power, the kids are nothing but convenient pawns.

ajdrew said...

Deb – I believe the book is a pedophilic instructional in its original form (without the seemingly insincere disclaimer) and I believe that in its later form, which seems to be virtually identical except for the tiny disclaimer, it remains a pedophilic instructional. The Frosts currently offer the book for sale on their website and I have emails stating that the book was purchased, signed, and dated at recent Pagan Pride events. I thus conclude that the book will likely be sold at Pagan Pride events such as yours. If you and / or the Frosts choose not to make it available for sale at the Fayetteville, Arkansas Pagan Pride event, I will be both pleased and disappointed. I will be pleased that the material is not being distributed, however I will be disappointed that the courts have not been given the opportunity to rule on the matter.

If you honestly believe the book is protected speech. If you honestly do not believe it is a pedophilic instructional, then allow it to be sold.

Concerning the event last Saturday in the park of North Little Rock, Arkansas why do you think the book was not sold? Did Pagan Pride Arkansas tell the Frosts they could not sell the book? Are you telling the Frosts they can not sell the book at your event?

Because the Frosts have reportedly made this book for sale at other Pagan Pride events, I suspect it was not available at the North Little Rock event this year, because I was rather open about contacting the authorities and encouraging other folk to do the same.

I am starting to see a shift in the way the defenders of the Frosts address the matter. In the past, the Frosts defenders said the book has never been found to be illegal. Now they seem to feel that the book may be illegal and want to prevent the courts from making a decision on the matter.

Which is it Deb? Do you think the book is illegal? Do you think the book is legal? I ask because I am having great difficulty understanding your opinion. You see I do not think that reporting potential violations of the law makes one a terrorist. I believe it makes one a good citizen. I believe it makes one a good American.

You see, being a good American does not mean ignoring such matters. It means being involved in bringing such matters to the attention of the proper authorities and courts such that those appointed and elected officials can make an educated decision on such.

May who ever you call God bless this great country and protect it from those who would subvert its simplest institutions. If anyone is now afraid to report a violation of the law because of this woman’s statements, let me assure you that I do not feel intimidated by her threats what so ever.

Report violations of the law when you see them or have reason to believe they are about to take place.

Shadowhawk said...

Personally Aj i hope it is sold wherever the Frosts go.. When they appear in Ohio i doubly hope it is sold there. Just to spite you Aj. UNTIL such a time as it ISNT allowed to be sold , i want it to be sold, just to irk you. You are not a judge, so either drag the Frosts into court or shut the fuck up..

ajdrew said...

Shadowhawk - I am again confused. You have just said that I should "drag the Frosts into court" or I should not discuss the matter. Discussing it, making its contents known, asking people to decide for themselves if they think it is a crime, and if so to report it to the authorities is how a person who is not a judge, police officer, or other public official causes a matter to appear before a court. Citizens raise public awareness in the hopes of causing government to take action in responce to its concerns.

So I am sure you can understand my confusion at what you have said. If people decide to report the book because they think it is illegal, is it not their right to do so?

The Voice of Reason said...

Drew Said....

"Report violations of the law when you see them or have reason to believe they are about to take place."

YOU didn't see anything Drew. You alleged. You have no proof one way or the other whether the book is being sold here or no and it's making you weirder than you already were.

The affairs of witches in Arkansas are of no concern of a sensationalist in OH. You stated in your blog to the "Norse Folk" that you were probably more Asatru than Wiccan....since when does an Asatru lower themselves to meddle in the affairs of a Wiccan?

Why don't you go deal with Pagan Problems in your own statea and allow us to get this court case together so we can "discuss" this on a level playing field. Mmmmmm, lets say Pulaski County Circuit Court, Arkansas?

The Voice of Reason said...

Pagan Temple,

I gave your questions to Gavin and Yvonne today. They were pretty tired after the wonderful day they had at the Central AR PPD in N Little Rock. They may have to email you off blog because anything they say is going to be picked apart in here.

Most of these people wouldn't even accept an apology if they apologized, burned all remaining copies of the GWB and cut off their right hands. But it's ok, because we're having a heck of a good time here in Arkansas and wish all of you were here so you could hear what the Frosts have to say about Good Witches Bible.

You're right there is a whole lot more going on here than a publicity ploy and a power grab.

In light of information that became available today, I think the whole world is going to be suprised at the kind of character the person who has been spouting "for the good of the children" really is!

Never try to sweep off someone else's stoop until your own is clean!

Love and light to all!

Deb

Shadowhawk said...

So there ARE skeletons in the Drew closet Eh....Very Interesting.

The Pagan Temple said...

Debra-

That's great, thanks again. I was actually intending those questions as suggestions for topics they might blog about. That would be ten different blog posts I figured they could stretch out over time, at their convenience.

But, if they want to answer me personally, of course I would be honored. My e-mail is on my blogs profile.

I did what I hoped would be seen as an objective post about the Frosts a couple of months or so ago, and AJ found it-I assume from googling the Frosts name. He came on my comments section to debate me on the matter.

He later sent me a link to this blog, ostensibly in an effort to "prove"-as he saw it-that the Frosts were still doing what he accused them of doing. That was the post where you and I first had a disagreement, though actually it was more of a misunderstanding.

I enjoy this blog quite a bit. I think it could become one of the major blogs over time. If I am correct, that would go a long way toward attracting more and more people than ever to the Church and School of Wicca.

Once they learn how to do links and upload photos, and other things like Technorati and stat services, they can really build their readership up over time. I wish them well.

As for AJ-well, I don't know what to say there. I wish him well to the point that I hope he gets over this obsession and experiences some kind of inner healing from whatever it is he's gone through. I warned him in our little private debate on my comments section about the kind of people he was going to attract around him if he continued with the road he was on.

If you're reading this, AJ, do you remember the line where I warned you about the stagnant pond? Well, I was right, wasn't I? Look at the people you have brought over here.

How does it feel to be The High Priest Of The Most Sacred Order Of The Obnoxious Trolls?

ajdrew said...

Pagan Temple - Nope, no clue what you are talking about. Poor memory. Sorry.

Concerning proof that the Frosts are still doing something illegal, I am rather sure they are distributing a pedophilic instructional. However, I am a bit concerned that you seem to have indicated that if they had distributed a pedophilic instructional in 1972 that you or anyone would befriend them today. Again, the issue at hand is what they are doing today, making that material available for sale. It is currently for sale on their website, probably the last source of the thing as I have been raising awareness for years and retailers have been choosing not to offer it for sale.

Deb said: “In light of information that became available today, I think the whole world is going to be suprised at the kind of character the person who has been spouting "for the good of the children" really is!”

Oh here it comes, she has figured out that when I was 12 I shot a chipmunk with a slingshot. Or maybe it is when I was 20 I spent most of my off duty time in a bar or the MP Pokey (MPs have no sense of humor). Or maybe it is that I am divorced. This is starting to sound like the Republicans vs. the Democrats with no attention to the issue at hand. Nice Deb. Good politician that you are.

On the other hand, maybe it is Carol or another De-Froster that she is about to attack like one of the big two political parties. Carol, you didn't once pose for GirlsGoneWild.com when you were in college did you. Cause you know, if you did well then, the Frosts book can't possibly be pedophelic in nature.

Read the book folk. Read the book.

Shadowhawk said...

You continually insist that its a pedophilic manual, then Aj why arent you rallying the troops raising money and such to take this to the courts. Youll so easily call and email various Pagan Pride events and Police departments , yet for all your years of battling the Evil Frosts , you havent done so.. You say a Judge would vindicate you, yet your not taking that step.. It is your right as an American citizen..
But wait i know why you havent,your afraid that maybe JUST MAYBE i could lose tbis case in court, you would look like an ass in the eyes of your followers, you would be a broke and destitute pariah in the pagan world stage. So instead you devise a HUMAN SACRIFICE in effigy of the Frosts..You shake your fists and say.. Since i cant beat you in court, i will ritually murder you , that'll show them mean old Frosts.. So tell me AJ why arent you charging into battle, instead of sitting on your ass

ajdrew said...

Shadowhawk – Again I am confused. You wonder why I am not raising money to bring this to the courts? I do not believe it takes money to bring something to the attention of the courts is country.

Vindicate me? Uh, someone has to file charges or sue me civilly for a Judge or Jury to do such. I am very confused as to what you are saying. Besides, I am no even sure what type of vindication you are speaking about. I am just some big, slow, blacksmith with a blog. I don’t see any reason for vindication, as most of what Frost supporters are saying about me is true. It is true that I do not adhere to their interpretation of the Wiccan Rede. It is true that I am not a very nice person to folk who promote pedophilic literature. It is true that I respond to PP statements to the press with rebuttals. It is true that I will report what I think are violations of the law without regard to pagan politics. I am just not a typical pagan, more heathen if you want to split the community into those two factions. Why would I want to be vindicated?

Now I am very confused about why it is that you are angry with me. You seem to indicate that I should take action if I think the material is a pedophilic instruction. I am doing so. Where I see it sold, I am reporting it. Where I believe it is going to be sold, I am reporting it. What would I accomplish by raising money? Please explain as I get more and more confused when ever you post.

How would I take them to court? I am doing everything I can to get this matter into the court system because I think the book is unprotected speech, a pedophilic instructional, and being sold at events such as Pagan Pride. I believe it is not being sold at PP Arkansas because I have notified the police and they are probably willing to arrest the moment it if offered for sale, thus it is not being offered for sale.

Is there some other course of action you would subject to cause the courts to rule on this matter? I am willing to listen to any advice.

Rhiannon said...

Greetings everyone.
I tried to stay on topic but a "certain" person took it elsewhere.

I would still like to have an honest talk with the Frosts. Have some questions answered. Unfortunately if it is not announced where they are going to be then I have to take it that they really do not wish to really talk to those who do have honest questions.

As to the courts. If any of this went to the courts it would be laughed out and I am sure the Judge would fine those who brought in to waste his time. (heard too many of these stories from lawyers in the family)

If a person is to state they "believe" something or another that is not slander. It is what they believe, not what they know. (splitting the hair 50 ways as a lawyer would say)

There is still something in this country called freedom of speech and thought.

As I have done several times I ask for proof that any of the statements I have made at any time is false. If proof is given I will gladly retract them and with an apology.
I have yet to have anyone give any real hard proof though.
I am more than willing to listen, but I need something worth listening to.
I read the book in question on my own to see how I felt about it. I made my own decision. I do know that the documentation given about the "baton de commandment" from The Roots of Civilization and "Clan of the Cave Bear" is false as to the being an "age old tradition" breaking of the hymen of prepubescent girls. So why would these two items be used as such??????

In Raymond Buckland’s book “The Witch Book” It says that Gavin Frost earned an honors degree (pg 190). I don’t know if it was from Kings College, but that is the last college that is mentioned as Gavin Frost having attended.

A lot of the questions that have been asked here have been asked in the past and as yet go unanswered.

Many "Blessings" to you all.

The Pagan Temple said...

Rhiannon said-

Greetings everyone.
I tried to stay on topic but a "certain" person took it elsewhere.

I would still like to have an honest talk with the Frosts. Have some questions answered. Unfortunately if it is not announced where they are going to be then I have to take it that they really do not wish to really talk to those who do have honest questions.

I Say-

Yeah, we should stay on topic, the last commenter was correct on that point. Therefore, in that spirit-

Gavin, Yvonne, I hope you get enough rain to ease the burden on your garden by the time you return home.

We got quite a bit of rain here in south central Kentucky. We too have been experiencing near drought conditions, so the roughly 2/3 inch we received here over the last day and a half was quite a big help.

Cooled things down nicely too.

It's been so bad all kinds of critters are roaming around, like the rat's corpse my neighbors cat left me as a friendly present. Believe me, I gave it a decent burial-a nice, deep one.

I HOPE YOU HAD A NICE TIME IN
LITTLE ROCK FOR THE WEEKEND OF SEPTEMBER 8/9 AND THAT YOU WILL HAVE ANOTHER PLEASANT TIME IN FAYETVILLE ON THE 15/16. I WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN THERE FOR ONE OF THESE APPEARANCES OR FOR THE ONE YOU HAVE SCHEDULED IN TOLEDO FOR OCTOBER 19/20/21-

ALL OF WHICH OF COURSE I SAW BY READING THIS BLOG POST (AHEM-COUGH,COUGH).

Bubba said...

"...THE ONE YOU HAVE SCHEDULED IN TOLEDO FOR OCTOBER 19/20/21-

ALL OF WHICH OF COURSE I SAW BY READING THIS BLOG POST (AHEM-COUGH,COUGH)."

We all saw this, the question was; what event in Toledo?

Also where in Toledo is this event being held?

See, on topic & no name calling.

Carol Maltby said...

Rhiannon, I asked Ray Buckland about the credentials he printed in his biographical entry on the Frosts. I believe most of the repetition of them that I've tracked down may originate in Buckland's profile of Gavin and Yvonne in The Witch Book: The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft, Wicca, and Neo-paganism, or Rosemary Guiley's Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft.

Ray says he got the information directly from Gavin, and as with most of the entries, he did not have the time or resources to verify it independently. Rosemary said the same.

Gavin and Yvonne Frost have been unwilling to discuss or explain what appear to be bogus academic credentials. In light of that, and given that Kings College says they have no record of Gavin's attendence or dissertation, a reasonable person would be justified in thinking their claimed credentials are fraudulent.

As for the Fair Use copyright questions that have come up regarding any of the Frosts' material quoted in emails or on the internet, here are some resources.

The statute:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000107----000-.html

This guide for teachers is a fairly good introduction to issues of fair use.
http://home.earthlink.net/~cnew/research.htm#Purpose%20of%20use

My understanding of copyright leads me to think that in no cases have there been any violations of the Frosts' copyright by participants in the recent discussions.

Rhiannon said...

Carol
Thank you for clarifying that. I haven't had a chance to talk with Dr. Buckland about this. I did have the feeling that what was written was given to him by the Frosts.

You are correct on the copy right law. So far nothing has been violated concerning the book. A good rule of thumb is 10% of the book is for fair use. If it is in making a point/statement then more may be used as long as proper credits are given.

I was wondering is anyone had seen this article concerning Pagan Pride Organization statement on the AK pagan event????

Begin statement
http://www.paganpride.org/lc/press/pr5.htm
A clarification on PPD, Inc's event policies

To whom it may concern:
Recently emails for Pagan Pride's Local Coordinators were harvested from Pagan Pride's website (http://www.paganpride.org) and an email was sent involving Pagan Pride's supposed support for the works and presence of Gavin and Yvonne Frost -- specifically referring to the Frosts' appearance at a Pagan Pride Day event in Fayetteville, Arkansas, USA.

Pagan Pride, Inc wishes to clarify the following:

1) The event in Fayetteville is not an official PPP, Inc-sponsored event. PPP, Inc claims no trademark over the term 'Pagan Pride Day'; therefore events may exist that are not part of the Pagan Pride Project. This is one of those independent events. It has no formal connection with the Pagan Pride Project, Incorporated.

2) The Pagan Pride Project, Inc, has no official stance on banning individual speakers or presenters on a national or international basis save those documented in our Event Policies ( http://www.paganpride.org/do/eventpolicies.html) and our Code of Ethical Conduct (http://www.paganpride.org/do/ethics.html). As a volunteer-driven organization, much of our decision-making is made at the local level, and we trust our volunteers to select speakers, presenters, and events that are appropriate for a family-friendly, politically neutral, and all-inclusive public event.

3) Effective immediately, the Pagan Pride Project specifically prohibits the harvesting of volunteer and Local Coordinator emails from our website for the purposes of mass spam emailing. (Yes, we realize there isn't much we can do if people do this, but we can at least state our official prohibition of the practice).

On a personal note, I accept and understand that the Frosts are at the least controversial figures based on some of their older writings, and at the most many Pagans find them to be unacceptable representatives of the community in any capacity. In the long run, I trust my Local Coordinators to have common sense about such things; I already know they have passion, enthusiasm, and an unflinching desire to make the world a better place for everyone, Pagans and non-Pagans alike.

If anyone has any questions, I encourage them to contact me directly.

Dagonet Dewr
Executive Director, Pagan Pride Project
***********************
End of statement.

Now to go back to the topic.
My garden is doing very well. No bugs or weeds to even worry about. The Wolfsbane is doing nicely for being a new planting, Rue is going wild this year as well as the other herbs. The trees we planted are doing nicely also even with the bit of dry hot weather we have had.
I, for one am still interested in the speaking event in Ohio. I believe this will be the first time in a long time the Frosts have ventured into Ohio. It seems that the store hosting the event is not wanting it’s name given out. In doing this people who do have genuine questions cannot meet with the Frosts unfortunately.

ajdrew said...

Carol – Concerning the copyright matters. Considering your understanding of the law, the references given, and the fact that I am most certainly providing critical commentary; why do you suppose the Frosts lawyer would imply that he was going to sue me for copyright infringement? I have tried repeatedly to call him and ask him, but he would only communicate via the woman who answered the phone by saying that he has no comment on one of my questions and that he wasn’t available for the other questions.

“In addition, your blog post “DeFrost – Please Read” publishes copyrighted material owned by Gavin and Yvonne Frost without their permission to do so. If you do not remove all quotations of the Good Witches Bible from your blog you may also be sued in United States District Court pursuant to 17 United States Code 501 et seq. For copyright infringement. Mr. And Mrs. Frost’s remedies for copyright infringement may include an injunction, statutory damages up to $150,000.00, costs and attorney fees.”

A letter from:

Parmer Law Office
104 James Street
Hinton, West Virginia 25951
Phone (304) 466-1233 Fax (304) 466-1238

Well now, it does seem like Gavin and Yvonne Frost and / or their lawyer does not want me to continue to offer critical commentary. After all, it would be virtually impossible to offer critical commentary on copyrighted material if one could not cite and quote the source.

Added to the Copyright Act in 1976 was: [T]he fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means…, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include--(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

One of the reasons of this addition is clearly expressed in item 2. “the nature of copyrighted work”. I find the work to be a pedophilic instructional with a brief and insincere disclaimer, one which is countered elsewhere. As an example of the disclaimer being countered, we can look at the back cover of the most recent edition (printed 1999) which in part reads:

“Now, as we approach the millenium[sic], these teachings are as current as they were in 1970.”

Now in so far as my belief that the Frosts conducted themselves as described in the 1972 edition of the book (the one without the disclaimers in question), we look at their statements in later editions.

Forward to book (1999 printing)- Page ii
“Gradually, though, some members of the Wiccan community have realized that we are in fact genuine Witches and that we live what we teach and believe”.

Then just prior to what seems to fatherly clearly describe some rather horrific teachings of pedophilia and incest, we see:

Forward to Chapter IV (1999 printing)

“This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca.”

Note that the statement is not only that what follows contains the teachings, but “the practices”. The practices themselves can be found at: http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/

1.The Frosts seem to state clearly that chapter 4 is what they taught in beginning of their Church and School of Wicca

2. The Frosts seem to clearly state that chapter 4 is what they practiced in the beginning of their Church and School of Wicca

3. The Frosts seem to clearly state that they practice what they teach.

4. The Frosts refuse to comment on the book.

Do they still practice this? I don’t know. Maybe they have changed their minds. But it does seem rather clear to me that they have said that they did during the early days of the Church and School of Wicca. Sure, it is hard to hear. Sure it sounds like a very nasty thing to say. But I do not think it is defamatory because it seems to be exactly what Gavin and Yvonne Frost are saying in print.

So here again I ask, Gavin and Yvonne Frost. You say in print that you taught the material in that book and you say in print that you practice what you teach. So what is it? Have you practiced what is contained in chapter 4 or have you lied to your readers? I don’t think it can wind you up in jail as we are talking about something that took place 34 years ago or more. I am sure the statute of limitations have run out, so what does it matter? Why not stand up for what you believe the way you do in that book?

I have been searching my mind to figure out why the Frosts perpetuate this blog and welcome critical commentary. What I arrive at is that they are testing the waters. They are seeing if they have support. To my surprise, they do. Very strong support in fact. Some of their defenders have gone so far as to threaten my life. Actual physical attacks are probably pending just as such attacks have been reported in the past. Do the Frosts actively control these people? I can’t say. I have been told they do and I have been told they do not. I do not think it matters.

What matters is that this blog and other examples should show Gavin and Yvonne Frost that they do have supporters, people who will do just about anything in their defense. So why not be honest about what took place back in the 70s and about what you wrote. Sure, the climate is different today and you have folk like me who are not willing to overlook what you did over 30 years ago, but it seems rather obvious that your supporters disagree with me and are more than willing to consider the fact that it was a rather promiscuous couple of decades (60s and 70s) which took place long ago. Be honest about things and maybe they will lend you a wee bit more support.

I do not know about you, but I would much prefer to admit the indiscretions of my youth than to be thought of as a man without honor, a nithling. Especially when the statute of limitations has run out on them.

No, it will not unite the folk who have come to be known as Defrosters with the folk who have come to be known as the Frosted Flakes, but it would probably better define the two groups. Frankly, I think that would make this whole matter a lot more easy to address. You would retain your elite group of supporters on the frings and never be concerned about the turn coats that you have probably started to notice.

This is why I want to speak to Gavin and Yvonne Frost and why I am asking again, when and where are you going to be in Toledo, OH. I see the date, but I don’t have the time or place. Do I need to buy tickets? Will you be bringing copies of the Good Witch’s Bible for sale, or will I have to contact the Toledo authorities to insure that bringing my copies there will not violate a law concerning the possession of obscene or pedophilic literature?

Why? Because I would like to clearly identify the sides in this issue. Once that had taken place, I do not much see any reason for bickering between the two sides because neither side will change the other's mind.

On my garden. This is a funny topic. I spent most of my summer putting in a floor, walls, and storage area in my Kentucky smithy. So much so that I did not get around to the work I had planned for the Ohio smithy this year. As a result, no garden this year. Two are planned for next year.

The garden at the Kentucky smithy will be a combination of container gardening, for the green critters which like to get away from me, and a raised bed for other green critters. I have about a five foot by thirty foot run down the side which gets morning and mid day sun. I have another run which is about five foot by fifteen foot which gets sun all day long.

Now the Ohio smithy is a bit more of a challenge. It is going to be all container gardening as I am building it on two flat sections of the roof and then constructing a stair step system at a peek area. I think it is going to look a wee bit odd, but provide enough food to make it worth the effort.

I have been considering adding water delivery methods which are not only effective but attractive. For Kentucky, I am thinking of a small-recycled running stream with a solar powered pump and aeration system. I like the idea of having fish in the stream for not only their beauty but also the emulsions.

I am not sure what to grow yet. Watermellons of course! I love the things. Someone told me there is a spaghetti squash that one can cook like pasta.

Blessed be and live free,

A.J. Drew
http://PaganNation.com

The Pagan Temple said...

AJ-

Spaghetti squash is just another kind of squash. There is also a kind known as acorn squash. I don't think you actually prepare it like a pasta. At least, I've never heard of it if you can.

Growing watermelons on a slope doesn't seem like a good idea to me, if I read you right. You have to plant watermelon seeds in a mound of dirt, packed tight. And when they grow, they take up a lot of space. The vines just grow and grow.

Also, watermelons would need to be planted in the spot where they would get the most sun. But five by fifteen foot doesn't seem like a lot of space for watermelon. Like I said,they require a lot of space.

How big a stream are you going to have, and what kind of fish?

Hummmm-seems like there was something else I was going to ask you, but it seems to have slipped my mind.

Oh well-guess it wasn't anything important.

Rhiannon said...

I just harvested my first batch of Rue today!!!! Next I think it will be the wormwood or the patchouli. The belladonna is really pretty right now!

As to the spaghetti squash, I was told you open it up and take the “guts” out of it which looks like “threads” of spaghetti. You then boil that and eat it just the same as you would spaghetti.
Acorn squash is really good baked with a lot of butter and brown sugar. There is also a favorite of mine, zucchini you can put this in veggie soup along with frying it or steaming it. I fry it in olive oil and garlic and put that over spaghetti. Steaming it I add green peppers and onions to enhance the flavor.
There are tons of different squash.

Water melons there are a lot of different ones today too. The little round seedless ones are fairly good but I don’t think match up to the old kind. If you get chicken wire and get your vines to grow threw them you will not need a lot of space because you can keep better control over them and where they go. The same goes with cucumbers. Stake them up and train them to climb up the chicken wire. Little space and they are not so likely to ground rot. Do the same with tomatoes and peppers or anything that would normally grow on the ground.

Hope some of that helped.

Carol Maltby said...

Verifying source material is a tough job for anyone doing a book intended to be encyclopedic. There's never enough time to do it thoroughly, and a lot of information has to be taken on trust, for better or for worse.

Same thing with indexing. You may find yourself being intensely frustrated because a book you are reading is poorly indexed, but that will usually mean that the publisher has not been willing to commit the funds for hiring a good professional indexer, and the writer just doesn't have those particular skills or the time to devote to it.

You know, I just thought of something that I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere before. Indexes could be compiled as wikis on the web, by groups of interested people. While referring to copyrighted material, they wouldn't actually be violating copyright. You'd need mods to make sure trolls weren't removing legitimate material, or adding bogus material. But it would also have the benefit of including smaller units of information that an indexer coming from outside might not notice as significant to the subject matter.

As to what Mr Parmer bases his letter upon, I see no legitimate legal or ethical reason for him or Gavin and Yvonne Frost to
claim that your postings of quotes from their material are violations of the Fair Use provisions of copyright law. None whatsoever.

We went through a period of using spaghetti squash a few years ago when we were trying to cut down on carbs. We'd split them down the long dimension, and steam them for as long as it would take for the fibers to loosen and turn translucent and softer (maybe about 15 minutes? You can bake them too). When ready they would look a bit like that mung bean noodle you can sometimes find in oriental groceries. You then remove the seed area, and pull out the squash "spaghetti" with a fork.

We'd put spaghetti sauce on them, and some cottage cheese. It worked well enough as an alternative pasta analog, though I don't know that I'd really go for it if I wasn't avoiding real pasta.

The Pagan Temple said...

Rhiannon-

I didn't know that about the spaghetti squash, I always wondered why it was called that.

I still don't think you're going to grow a lot of watermelon on a five-by-fifteen foot area. I think you are supposed to plant the seeds five foot apart, in a mound of dirt, and I think most people usually plant three or four seeds per mound, to insure at least one comes up.

I would guess you would be unlikely to be able to grow more than one per mound, so what does that leave you, four watermelons? You could do it, sure, but seems to be an awful lot of trouble for four watermelons.

I didn't know you could grow patchouli in the states, I guess you can in some areas though. Of course, I don't have much of a green thumb. I used to want to grow star anise, but could never have any luck, and I love that stuff. Makes a great tea-really good for Samhain. Anytime, really.

But, alas, I'm a lazy witch, and make mine with a coffee-maker.

ajdrew said...

Pagan Temple – Naw, no slope. The Smithy has four walls. Along the side that mostly faces East, there is a strip where I am going to raise the earth. That strip runs for 30 feet in a North – South direction and I can make it about 10 feed wide. The thing is, after the son passes the top of the smithy, the building shields it from the garden area on that side. So sun only hits it directly for the morning and early afternoon.

Now the front of the building is also 30 feet long, but I only have about 10 x 20 to work with because some of the space is used by a raised area for wheel chair access to the building.

Now the whole 30 foot by 30 foot building is on a slope, but it is a pole construction with a level floor which is elevated above the ground sufficiently to allow for it to be level. Basically, the ground is at floor level on the West Side of the building and the floor is three foot above the ground on the east part of the building. So part of the reason for the garden to run across the East side of the building is to cover that 3-foot area where one can see under the building. Basically, I am going to box it in and fill it with topsoil and mulch.

Rabitchka and Rolland took pictures as I built and I am going t be down there in a couple weeks. I will post pictures if you are seriously interested in the building’s development. It has been a joy. It is the first major project since my accident and although it was rather painful, I am very proud not only of the building but of the fact that I progressed quicker than pups half my age did on their building.

Carol – Ye, I am avoiding the carbs. I am getting older and I am a diabetic. The combination makes for carb avoiding. Well, except tonight. Oh man, I drank some huge mugs of Guiness at a friends bachelor party.

Rhiannon – No watermelon? What the heck is the point?

The Pagan Temple said...

AJ-

Of course I would be interested, why wouldn't I be? I'm a Hellenic Wiccan-for want of a better term-if you were Hellenic, you would probably be close to Hephaestos, all the more so since you have a disability. I recommend him highly.

Post the pictures for you, not for me, although I might even be interested in putting them on my own blog, and do a post about them-with your permission, of course.

As for all this other stuff you keep going on about-sorry, I'm just not interested. That doesn't mean I can't be interested in something else you might do that is worthwhile, such as this.

Rhiannon said...

AJ Drew
I am an herbalist not a watermellonist. LOL

The watermellons grew on the flat on top of the wire. Plant about 5 seeds per hill and you should get about 3 plant to come up. Place the wire over the plants and train them to grow across it. This saves space and gives a better yield.
4 per plant is kind of a low yield but it would be better than none at all! :)

My patchouli grows well here in the midwest.

No real garden this year. Maybe next year we can go for it again but I am much older than when I had an acre for garden and grew everything I wanted. I didn't buy store produce or can items then. I think we were all healthier then too.

Edward Anderson said...

It seem to me that it should be an easy matter to prove whether or not the Frost's book has promoted and promotes pedophilia.

If a book doing this has been published for what, 30 or 40 years, you would think that there would be at least 100 kids who have been abused because of what is in the book. That would be a mere three children per year, and if the book is such a terrible threat, I would think it would have produced at least that many crimes.

And since some of the children would now be in their 20s and 30s, I'm sure you could find some who are willing to testify that they have been abused as described in the book.

According to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System, 889,000 children were abused or neglected in 2005 ( http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/summary.htm ). So if the book is a threat, it seems to me that finding 100 children abused as a result of the book could be found. Or maybe just 10.

Frankly, it concerns me that I don't see anything being done to help the children who have supposedly been abused as a direct result of this book. I would hope that if the book is causing the problems being claimed, that the children are found and given the support and assistance they need.

So to all those attacking the Frosts, to all those who want to help the children, where are the children who have been abused? Obviously, you can't use their names, but you should be able to supply reports that specifically name the Frost's book. Where is the evidence?

Of course, it could be that even though 30 or 40 years have gone by without causing any harm, there may be some people who have bought this book, have children now, and intend to follow the instructions. Obviously, they would feel that such practices would be the right thing to do and wouldn't be afraid to say so.

Where are they? Where are the dozens or hundreds of adults claiming they're going to act on what the Frosts wrote?

I'm sure somebody, somewhere can come up with abused people or people who will abuse because of the book. [irony alert!]After all, look at all of the children who have been molested after adults read Lolita[end irony alert].

fenix said...

Yeah, me again. I was there in the seventies, as a young child, when my parents were involved with the Frosts. I'll be happy to talk to anyone and answer questions. My email is applcorp@gmail.com. Write me!