Look, Guys and Gals.
We may be psychic; we may be magicians. But we're human. We simply can't respond to all your questions one at a time. The new lecture-workshop that we are offering wherever we appear, entitled "Gavin and Yvonne Tell All", offers a forum to express your views and to ask those questions. What if someone much smarter with electronics than we are were to film a typical Q & A session and were to post it on (for example) youtube?
We ask that the questions and answers be posted in their entirety. To that end we will keep our own record of the session.
As you know, we conduct a correspondence school. Its tuition-paying students get preference in having their questions answered. Sometimes even they get short-changed, simply because of that four-letter word, Life, and its conflicting priorities.
We will try to answer a maximum of ten E questions per week when we are at home. They must be reasonable questions that are not ad hominem attacks, snide remarks, irrelevant queries about members of our extended family--or, for that matter, our opinions about other members of the pagan/Wiccan fraternity.
The most prevalent question recently has been, "Why did you write 'Good Witch's Bible'?"
We wrote it in response to complaints about "THE Witch's Bible", which was the very first handbook of the new religion of Wicca. We discussed and fine-tuned the revisions that became GWB with the 200-plus people who attended the Council of American Witches called by Carl Weschcke in Minneapolis in 1974. From that council came The Principles of Wiccan Belief, which we think many of you should read. These principles give a view of the then-community's opinion. Our recent book "The Bible of Sex Magic and Enlightenment" was written to reflect the actual practice in some covens in the community as we knew it at that time, not the pale, inhibited squabbling ghost it has now become. We strongly suggest that you also read our blog "Quotable Quotes" to see the many things we said that seem to have been overlooked.
Ask any of the oldsters. We had a vision. We didn't necessarily agree, any two with each other, but we shared the dream of freedom--of cutting each other some slack and developing enlightenment. Freedom from the narrow, artificial "family-values" box extrapolated and carried over intact from people's Christian backgrounds. Our vision aimed for
Humanity, life, and enlightenment
NOT
conflict, war, and destruction.
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40 comments:
Ker-whap....
The sound made when someone is hit over the head with a Bible...or in this instance Good Witch's Bible.
Great post. And I am not suprised that I am the first person to comment on it...I'm also not suprised that no one has taken Fenix up on the open discussion of her childhood.
There are many things people will shout to hear, but no one really wants to hear them. When you provide them with TRUTH, then they no longer have supposition.
Looking forward to seeing your beaming faces,
Debra Ravenswood
Gavin, I am very confused.
On September 29, 2007 you said: “We discussed and fine-tuned the revisions that became GWB with the 200-plus people who attended the Council of American Witches called by Carl Weschcke in Minneapolis in 1974.”
You seem to be indicating that the product of this conference was The Good Witches Bible. This is a confusing statement as the 2000 edition lists its publishers as:
1972 – Nash
1984, 1986, 1989, 1990 – Al-Jon
1995, 2000 – Godolphin House (owned and operated by Gavin and Yvonne Frost)
Prior to your self publishing of the book, I can only find it for sale as The Witch’s Bible and not the Good Witches Bible. Further, within the pages of the current publication as The Good Witch’s Bible are two clear statements which cause your above statement to seem like a misdirection.
“On the page preceding the Introduction and each chapter you will find an updating foreword. These forewords note the changes in the text that we would make if we were writing our Wiccan Bible today. – January 2000”
That seems to indicate the inclusions were made in January of 2000, not 1974. In fact, as there was no publication of the book until the Al-Jon edition in 1984, one wonders what exactly it is that you are staying.
More over, the Al-Jon publication seems to rather clearly be titled “The Witch’s Bible”.
http://www.bookbase.com/search;jsessionid=D7D9C27A2C0EEB75E010E1C98187827A?dealer_login=academic&bookId=M03181&method=POST
http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=77356979&aid=frg
On June 20, 2007 you said: “Based on our response, Carl Weschcke of Llewellyn Publishing took it upon himself to put us "on trial" in Minneapolis.” - http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com/2007/06/witch-wars-and-their-cost.html
Was this the same event? Are you first saying it was a trial due to the 1972 publication of your Witches Bible and then later saying it was a conference where 200 people helped you change the book?
In June of 2007 you said: “When it was first published, as soon as we recognized that some readers had a problem with a passage or two in the Bible, we caused the publisher to insert explanatory notes.”
Again I am confused. Did Carl Weschcke’s conference help you to fine-tune and revise the book or did you cause the publisher to insert an explanatory note or two, leaving the text in place?
I talked to Carl Weschcke (owner of Llewellyn Worldwide) not long ago. He said he never read your book, never put you on trial, and was just trying to settle you and Herman Slater down after you came out with some rather anti-homosexual statements. So when you now indicate that he and 200 people from the conference and / or trial helped you revise the Witches Bible into The Good Witches Bible in 1974 which wasn’t published again until 1984, not published under the new title until you self published in 1995, and not containing the forewords until 2000…. Well you can see why I might think you are attempting to rewrite history.
You said: “We wrote it in response to complaints about "THE Witch's Bible", which was the very first handbook of the new religion of Wicca.”
That book was first published in 1972. There was no “handbook” of Wicca prior to that time? I suppose now we are going to have to argue about the term “handbook”.
Concerning “Quotable Quotes”, yep you say in the 2000 edition that you added the disclaimer about minors in the 2000 edition. Why not just address the issue and say when it was added? Why not answer the questions? Why do you keep going on with misinformation apparently thinking that folk can not easily see the truth with a simple goggle search of used books?
You said: “Freedom from the narrow, artificial "family-values" box extrapolated and carried over intact from people's Christian backgrounds.”
Uh, you think that folk who object to that book are stuck in a box because we think children should not be initiated with incest and sex? You have got to be kidding me. This is an explanation for the content of that book? This and the idea that folk who object to it are narrow minded? I am having trouble believing I am reading this.
If you want to talk about the facts behind your book and its publications, why not include facts behind your book and its publications rather than waxing on about events and people. When did you add the disclaimer? What year? Which publisher? Why didn’t you do so earlier. Why is it you are claiming in one instance to have made great changes and in another not to have made but a few insertions to be made. When were those insertions made?
When did you change the title? What year? Is there something in the Al-Jon editions which are different from the 1972 and the 2000 editions?
It seems to me that AJ and Aimee are so enamored by the sound of their own voices that they are unable to hear or read anything else. Fenix, who lived with her parents (her dad and me) while we worked with the Frosts for several years, has repeatedly said that she was NOT intoxicated nor molested. I can vouch for that. Believe me, if anything had happened to our kids there would have been bloodshed.
Is it too hard to stop and read what someone else has to say? Especially someone who really knows the truth? What is the problem?
Wushih,
You are SO Correct!
For you and Fenix to come onto the scene has smashed their supposition and conjecture all to pieces.
My gosh, how do you create sensationalism whent he truth is right up in everyone's faces?
Gasp, could this be the end of the Witch War?
Whatever will the Jerry Springer crowd do now for entertainment?
Praying for peace and harmony in the Pagan Community.
Debra Ravenswood
Mr. Drew, you miss part of history.
There is an important reason that The Witch's Bible was not in print for over a decade.
If anyone actually reads the book completely (and I seriously doubt if you have), you would quickly see that each chapter is virtually complete in itself. That's because the book is nothing more than a collection of the original lessons from their school.
Why should anyone pay over $100 to take the lessons when they could buy the book for 1/10th that price? It was imply financially advantageous to make the content of the book available for over $100 per person rather than for them to get a small part of the cover price.
It is my understanding that the Frosts have changed the content of their school. Never having been a member of the school either decades ago nor more recently (nor am I interested in becoming a member) I can't guarantee that the changes have been made. However, that 12-year gap should have given them time to make changes.
Mr. Drew, you wrote that you believe the Frosts "think that folk who object to that book are stuck in a box because we think children should not be initiated with incest and sex?"
Uh, no. You are so fixated on a few pages from the book that you have ignored the rest of the hundreds of pages in the book. They were talking about the entire work, not your fixation and your focus on words rather than the responsibility of parents and the education of children and the assumption that kids are morons who can't say, "No." As a parent you should know that's one of the first words they learn.
Wushih – I don’t think it is I who can not read. We are discussing the book, not the personal lives of Gavin and Yvonne Frost. What your opinion or other people’s opinions on the Frosts and their actions have little if any to do with the book they wrote. That book being viewed by many as a pedophilic instructional in the name of Wicca.
Edward Anderson – I have read the book in its whole in the 1972 version and the 2000 version. The 2000 version contains exactly what the 1972 version does. If there is a word changed, I can not find it. In fact, the 2000 edition states that it contains the whole of the 1972 edition. However, the 2000 edition contains a statement that forewords have been added as if the book had been written in January of 2000.
So, from what the Frosts have included in print I conclude that the book remained the same, without any disclaimer or noticeable changes from 1972 until 2000. Now I do not have each of the editions previous, but as the Frosts state that virtually no changes were made, I will take their word for it despite their insinuating (but not stating) that such changes were made prior to the year 2000.
I assure you that there are numerous portions of that book which I despise. I am rather upset about the radical homophobic tone, the racist statements about white vs. black students, the insistence on non-monogamy, and the list goes on. However, those are personal observations. There is nothing illegal about having homophobic or racist views. There is nothing illegal about open relationships.
Concerning children learning the word “No” at an early age. Did you know that most states impose greater laws for the molestation of a child by an authority figure? Why? Because an authority figure is not generally given the word no.
Mr. Drew, thank you very much for writing and mentioning my name. Curiously, your comments had nothing to do with what I posted, and if that is how badly you misinterpret a few paragraphs I can see how your problems have been derived.
You claim that "I assure you that there are numerous portions of that book which I despise." And yet, your posts, both here and on your website, time and time again, focus on just a few pages.
And by the way, what does your faith have to say about cybersquating--stealing a URL that by all rights should belong to someone else? Does your religious beliefs support such thefts?
Wushih:
Fenix said-"For the record, my mother did read the Witch's Bible - in it's original form - and flat out told the Frosts she refused to participate in the "deflowering" ritual and would not subject her children to it, either. They said, "ok."
Good for you; but just because you had the common sense to say no does not mean that all of the Frost's "students" did.
Edward Anderson:
"And by the way, what does your faith have to say about cybersquating--stealing a URL that by all rights should belong to someone else? Does your religious beliefs support such thefts?"
If the Frosts did not want us here, they would moderate their comments.
Quite frankly, I think they are enjoying the added sales generated by this controversy.
Unfortunately for them, this also means that more people know what kind of tripe they have written.
Debra:
Nothing is over, we're just getting warmed up.
Have you ever noticed Bubba speaks yet never really says anything..Now you watch he will reply and it wont make sense or he will call me a Frosted Flake.Poor Ignorant Bubba
Bubba, while I agree with your comment in response to what I posted, it has nothing to do with what I posted. So out of interest's sake, why did you put it there?
Mr. Anderson:(Oooh matrix moment lol)
As our comments here are meant to prevent harm rather than cause it, our religion has no problem with it.
Shadowhawk:
I am trying to be civil here, but your childish behavior is making it very difficult.
Again, grow the fuck up!
Anderson – Rereading your post and my reply, I seem to be answering your post even in the section you quoted. You said you seriously doubt I have read the entire book. I assured you I had and mentioned the many sections I disagree with personally, explaining that those sections do not condone illegal activity so I do not bother to focus on them.
Cybersquating? Steeling a URL? Great, now we are going to go off on another tangent. It wasn’t good enough for Frost supporters to make up allegations of inappropriate acts with my daughter, restraining orders, and drug convictions. Now it is going to turn a discussion of a book into attacking me for my business sense. I buy and sell domain names in accordance with federal law and Internet convention. Is there one that you think should be yours that I own?
Starting this evening 7;15 pm central standard time questions will be answered .Part 1 of a 2 part interview series concerning Aj Drew and his lies about the Frosts . Tune in to Pure Pagan Radio on shoutcast..We are going to educate the WIDER pagan community as to whats really going on with Aj Drews little fiasco. Tune in thru winamp, itunes, nero media, verizon smart phone or windows media player.
Mr. Drew, my post was about the Frosts possibly changing the content of their school's course. You posted nothing about that and your post, as I wrote, had nothing to do with what I posted.
I pointed out the independence of each "chapter" of their book. You had never noted that and still ignore that. So either you didn't read the entire book or you have become so fixated on a few pages that you don't understand the nature of the book. Which is it?
I don't have any websites, nor am I interested in keeping them. However taking someone else's name and setting up a URL is considered unethical and virtually every case where cybersquatting has come to the courts has been lost by the cybersquatters. If your "business sense" is based on theft, why should anyone do business with you or look to you as a model for ethics?
Mr. Anderson - I am not following your logic. I have read the book over front to back. In fact, I have tried to figure out what they claim they changed and can not, although I can see the additions they made in the year 2000.
Concerning their mail order course in Wicca, I don't think I have ever addressed it. I have been speaking and am speaking about the book. The subject of this blog entry is questions about the book, the changes made to the book.
So I do not see how it is that I have only the two choices you have listed.
I am discussing the book which doesnt seem to have been changed in the slightest until the 2000 edition.
Shadowhawk - What lies? All I am doing is quoting the book and saying I think it is pedophelic in nature. In fact, I will probably be stating that as a fact soon as I am having folk trained by the state in recognizing such things review it.
As I collect their statements and credentials, I will post them.
Mr. Drew, I talked about changing their COURSE and you responded by saying you can't find any changes in their BOOK.
Book.
Course.
They are two different things.
And since you don't want to respond any more to your unethical and illegal cybersquatting, I'll just assume that you feel guilty about it but don't care. I'll also assume that cybersquatting is part of your self-described "business practices," and I'll be sure to warn everyone away from doing any business with you.
Mr. Drew,
Actually, I can read and I remember what I read which does seem to be a problem for you. I appreciate the fact that you had a head injury. You have stated this more than once and it does seem to be something you fall back on as an excuse for your inability to use spell check. I have worked many years with individuals who are mentally retarded, developmentally disabled or delayed and also with people who have had head injuries. I know how difficult it is for some people to function.
Now, about your memory. I have material which shows you clearly accusing Gavin and Yvonne personally of "intoxicating, molesting and raping" children so my daughter, Fenix, and I have both stood up to your accusations and said this did not happen. Then you state that you are "only discussing the book".
Of course, I also have material where you state that you intend to destroy the Frosts in effigy at your Real Witches Ball this October which you later denied. It is only fair to point out to you that more than one group in the Pagan Community is collecting information regarding your threats and/or denials.
Head injuries often cause internal confusion for the patient and hardship for their families. I hope you have or are receiving the hospitalization, counseling and medication you need and deserve.
I wish you well and I hope you get better.
Wu
Thursday nights interview in my Radio show went great, now tune in on sunday night for Part 2, learn the side of things that Drew doesnt know , or maybe he does but just wont admit to. This is being broadcast to the community so that another side to the story can be heard.. Pure Pagan Radio on shoutcast tomorrow night 7;15 listen and you might learn something
Shadowhawk-
Are you doing these radio shows on a regular basis? If you are, I will put up a link on my blog. I just have to think of a good heading to put them under, something that fits in with the overall theme of my sidebar.
Put up the exact link to your show if you are. When I clicked the link on your blog, it went to the homepage of the web-site.
Hi Pt.. the Shoutcast LISTEN links are crap, yes my show is a regular nightly event. Music of all kinds Celtic , new age, Pagan, rock of all kinds. My shows run from 7-11pm central time. My show is called Pure Pagan Radio.ill do what i can to get a working listen link but havent been able to so far. The Reason i post Shoutcast.com is people can download winamp to be able to listen. As far as your blog, post what you can . Hopefully ill have a working link soon
Shadowhawk
wushih said
"Now, about your memory. I have material which shows you clearly accusing Gavin and Yvonne personally of "intoxicating, molesting and raping" children so my daughter, Fenix, and I have both stood up to your accusations and said this did not happen. Then you state that you are "only discussing the book". "
I'm sure you do have that material that you think says that. Read it again and you will see that he says that if what they wrote is true then he believes that they have done those things. So what you are saying is that they are not rapists they are liars, thanks for clarifying that.
wushih said:
"Of course, I also have material where you state that you intend to destroy the Frosts in effigy at your Real Witches Ball this October which you later denied. "
He has never denied that he is sacrificing them in effigy, what he denied is that he is "burning", "stabbing", or any of the other ridiculous lies that the frosts and their supporters have come up with, again read what you are referring to and reiterate your statement.
wushih said:
"It is only fair to point out to you that more than one group in the Pagan Community is collecting information regarding your threats and/or denials."
And when it comes down to it they will look like fools who are just reiterating what they are being told by others rather than reading what they are supposedly collecting, just as you have been.
As far as A.J.'s head injury, he has never used it in reference to anything to do with the Frosts, he keeps a blog on Pagannation and one section of that blog is dedicated to his recovery. Shadowhawk, a limp dicked idiot, read that part of his blog went to you tube and started calling A.J. names in reference to that injury, anything that A.J. has mentioned since has been in response to others bringing up his disability. The Frosts who have been trying to find a way to sue A.J., and have no case, are now using it as an excuse as to why they cannot sue him.
Aimee-
1. If you are "sacrificing" the Frosts in effigy, what difference does it make how you do it, whether it's by burning, stabbing, drowning, shooting, or hanging? I'm assuming from your past comments you do not intend to kill them with the milk of human kindness.
2. How do you know Shadowhawk is a "limp dick"?
Aimee,
The first thing you need to do is calm down. I said 'destroy,' not burn or stab or whatever other 'ridiculous lies the Frosts are saying'. When you get excited, you sometimes miss the point of what has been said or written. A problem I have observed is that both of you tend to side-step or back up and just ever so slightly change what you originally said and then you accuse other people of misinterpreting your original statements. You also appear to want to blame other people for your confusion/problems. Accusing other people or calling them liars is likely to bring you some pretty heavy karma. You do believe in karma don't you? Are you a Pagan?
Isn't A.J. allowed to speak for himself? Who is driving this campaign? You or him? Have you read everything that Mr. Drew has written concerning this issue?
As far as Mr. Shadowhawk's dick is concerned, I'm sure I don't know anything about that but apparently you do.
Does name calling make you look smart?
It is to laugh...
Yeah, AJ and Aimee are the Wiccan tag team. When one gets in a jam, the other gets tagged and comes in for relief work.
From the looks of her slur against Shadowhawk, one might assume Shadowhawk has-er-pinned her to the mat a time or two.
Don't feel bad, Shadowhawk. If she sounds the way she reads, I'd probably have to have a cocktail of Viagra and Cialis mixed with about sixteen ounces of Yohimbe tea. A fifth of gin wouldn't hurt.
Its great to know im loved. And poor Aimee mouthpiece to and for her husband, and Wushih no Aimee is not Pagan. Shes just a sexually repressed Baptist with time on her hands
I dunno. They both seem to be angry and it isn't just the Frosts they are angry with. They appear to be angry with everyone they speak to (or write to). I hope they have friends at home and I certainly hope they like each other. Hard to tell.
It's like something awful happened to their family and they are lashing out. First it was a crusade to harm the Frosts and now it seems that they have alienated so many people that they are just pissed off at the world.
I don't think they are having very much fun these days.
I wouldn't want to live like that.
Fun to observe More Developed persons comments, research their actual Doings that are helping victims of religious cults recover from Fear, Guilt, Repression.
Now observe Less Developed persons comments. Research their actual Doings or Not Doings and the effect it is having on our Spiritual Community. When you lash out at others in The Group Mind, it is causing a focus on the negative(too much like popular news stations). I do not care what excuse you have, mental or physical disability, it tells me that you are asking for help. Receive It.
Mr. Hootsell--
Just because someone needs help doesn't mean they are asking for help. Trying to help someone who doesn't want it is like trying to move a SUV by pushing a piece of soft rope tied to the rear bumper.
I want to thank Fenix and Wushih for taking there time to be Interviewed on my radio show concerning this Drew situation, alot was covered and people learned a different view than what the Drew camp projects in this matter
Pagan Temple:
On the word “sacrifice”, my feet are a bloody mess from this past week and a half. The details do not much matter other than to say that I slept no more than about 3 hours a night during that time and the only other time I was not on my feet swinging a hammer or moving inventory was when I was driving between states. As a result, my wife and I are much closer to a financial goal for our children. It was a sacrifice that was well worth it.
The idea that the word “sacrifice” indicates killing something reflects a rather poor understanding of the word. For the last few years at IRWB we have held a “Blood Sacrifice”. It’s when the American Red Cross comes and folk sacrifice their blood.
The word indicates two things. First and older meaning that something is being made sacred. Second, the more modern meaning that something is being given up for a cause. I am not using dictionary definitions here, but you get the idea. I don’t much adhere to the whole late night horror movie junk that I had thought was long since driven from the pagan community.
It is all part of a rather large working of magick. A work which I have titled Familial Heathenry. Thus far, while it has not taken the course I predicted to the letter, it has been greatly successful. The exact nature of this work will be spelled out at this year’s International Real Witches Ball, from there the years will tell.
Mr. Anderson:
Now I understand where you are coming from. I did not address the course as I was under the impression the discussion was about the book. Thinking we were speaking about the book, I thought you were implying that the book had been changed somewhere in the course of its existence between 1972 and 1995. As far as I can tell, it was not.
If I am understanding your stance correctly, you are saying that the book is the economical version of their course. I can see that view because I believe the 1972 version of the book was created by combining the many different lessons into one publication which was available for far less cost than the course.
The thing is, the book seems to have been unchanged from 1972 until its second self-publishing effort by the authors in the year 2000. So wile I don’t much have an opinion on the course for having not read each version as it changed, it seems as if until the books retail availability hit rock bottom, more people would have purchased the book than taken the course as it is the more affordable way to go.
If that is the case, the book being in its pre 2000 configuration / lacking the forewords and introductions which were added in the 2000 edition, was more representative of their teachings than what ever was contained in their course.
But other than that observation, I do not have much of an opinion on the course in its many configurations because I do not have copies of such.
On illegal cyber squatting and how you are advising people not to do business with me. No clue what you are talking about. I do own urls and am developing them. Is there one that you think you should own for some reason? First time I heard of it.
Mr. Drew.
It seems, then, we are in agreement on the state of the book and the course.
As to cybersquatting, I have it from three different people that you took domain names associated with them. Some are now back in their hands.
If it had been one person and a generalized name, I can understand it. But when it's from three different people who say, "Hey, he did that to me, too," that's more than chance, that's a questionable, unethical, and possibly legally actionable activity.
Even if you haven't been taken to court over such actions, do your religious beliefs actively support such immoral and unethical practices?
So what are you saying, AJ? What are you going to do with the effigies. Talk bad to them? Tell them to go away? Curse them? Then what? What are you going to do with the effigies? Just pack them away until the next years Real Witches Ball, then do it all over again?
Write a book, AJ. Don't hand me any shit about you being brain damaged. If you can make knifes and swords for a Renfair, and climb up to the top of a roof to hawk them, you may be strange but you ain't brain damaged. If you can do that shit, you can write.
And what's this Ren Fair shit anyway? That's Middle Ages bullshit. That doesn't have a damn thing to do with pagan times. I guess next you are going to be making lances for jousting bouts.
On the other hand, the Middle Ages were when people were being burned at the stake on accusations of witchcraft, so maybe this makes a little bit of sense.
If you do ever decide to go back to writing, by the way, just write without putting other people down. Were you by any chance one of these kids that used to steal weaker kids lunch money?
This is a serious question, by the way. I have a reason for asking you this? Were you a school bully? Honestly.
Mr. Anderson - The only domain name I can imagine you are talking about is WitchesVoice.com. I was working with a small LLC at the time to develope a voice IM (hence the word Voice) system for a specific Wiccan organization (hence the word Witch). The LLC did a federal trademark search and found that there was nothing registered at all as a software company, so we purchased the name. I registered the thing sometime during the product development.
The owner (or one of, or the president, or something like that) of The Witches Voice Inc. of Florida decided he wanted it. I told him no and he dropped it.
Why? Well, there is nothing illegal or immoral about two people using the same name unless there is a deliberate attempt to cause confusion. We were rather clear who we were and who we were not. We did, for a short time, put up a parody site as a joke after the Florida incorporation was rather mean and demanding beyond the scope of the law.
Later, Dorothy Morrison told me the owner of the Florida incorporation was realy broken up about it. Not on a business leval, but on a personal leval. So I wrote him and told him if Dorothy says he is a good guy, then I gotta figure he is a good guy and gave him the domain.
That doesn't sound like much of an immoral or unethical act to me. It sounds like two guys having an issue, the law being on my side, and me being all nice about it because someone I trust told me the other guy was folk.
I think that is very ethical. One cuts slack for folk. One does not for people who are not folk. I didn’t think he was folk, so I wasn’t willing to talk to the partners on his behalf. Then I found out he was folk, so I talked to the partners and presto… guy had what guy wanted.
I wrote about this in one of my books. I think it was Wicca for Couples. So yep, not only do I think my conduct was ethical and moral, I promote such conduct & have never tried to hide it. I think you are being horribly mislead, lied to, or perhaps twisted like a pretzel. The later being what is usually the case around here.
As an example: Did you know that folk seem to be under the mistaken impression that the disclaimer in the Frosts book was added earlier than the year 2000? Even more twisted, lots of people are being told that the quotes have been removed. Lots and lots of lies floating around and no clear answers to be found.
Gavin:
Could you please answer the questions clearly?
Why is it the year 2000 book seems to be the first edition since 1972 to have the disclaimer in it? You know, the one that says you shouldn’t formally initiate anyone under 18 years of age with the explanation that you might be sued? Initiation being a reference to the sexual initiation following the disclaimer.
Here are the quotes, most from the 2000 edition. A few from the 1972 edition because I didn’t have the 2000 in hand at the time, but I am sure those last two are in the 2000 as well as the 2000 edition says it has everything that the 1972 edition had.
------
Chapter IV
“When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”
Note the use of the word “child”. As I understand this statement we are speaking about prepubescent / onset of puberty. Perhaps the age of 10.
“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “
Note that according to this statement, it seems what follows would have been led by Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the Heads of their Coven.
“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”
Note: Note the use of the word “child” in this sentence. Note also that this sentence appears in the same discussion as the reference to the age being the onset of puberty. Obviously, we are speaking of children well under legal age and apparently about 10 years of age.
“The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”
Note: I did not know that home genital surgery was part the Wiccan religion.
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”
Note: There are two phalluses. One large, one small. There are instructions for making them using wood dowels, nylon cord, and wax. The object of this exercise appears to be to stretch the virgin vagina to make it ready for coitus. Remember, as we discussed earlier we might be speaking about a 10 year old girl.
Table Five contains the following instructions
“You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
Note: As I understand this, a 10 year old girls father should help her with the home made phalli? In the state of Ohio, this is rape. In any state, this is obscene.
“After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.”
Note: The table provides the time and schedule to use the two devices of differing sizes.
“The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. ”
Note: The importance of fasting will become evident later.
“Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. “
Note: As I understand this passage, this states that a live sex show should be given to children as early as the age of 10 years of age.
“The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it.”
Note: As I understand this statement, children the age of 10 years old should make decisions on the use or lack of use of birth control prior to having sex.
“The flamenca gives the novice a full glass of mead.”
Note: While I am not a doctor, I believe the result of having a child or most adults fast for three days and then drink a “full glass” of a high carbohydrate alcoholic beverage would be near instant intoxication.
“Bring back the fruits of your sponsor’s body”
Note: Although the instruction is not specifically to go have sex, with the wording of the preparation, this instruction is not hidden at this point. So at this point, we might be speaking of a 10 year old girl, removed from her parents care, raped by her father with a series of home made dildos, fasting for three days, intoxicated on mead, and told to go have sex with her sponsor. In the case of a male child, skip the dildo and include genital surgery.
“Does the novice now understand the meaning of life?”
“Do you still wish to be a member of this coven?”
Note: Some final highlights remember we are obviously talking about “children” and seem to be talking about children as early as the age of 10 years old.
“Do you have the fruits of your body (sponsors body)?”
“I will use my sex for good;”
“She symbolically whips him with his own whip. He kisses her foot, she helps him to rise. He points to his ankh (symbol of the God’s authority) at her. She falls to the ground. He symbolically whips her. She kisses his foot; he helps her to rise. “
“The symbology [SIC] of the meek overcoming the strong and the godhead overcoming all, even the flamenca, is easy to understand, but has been the cause of many attacks by the establishment, who freely change “foot” to “backside”.
Note: Interesting use of the word “establishment”. When combined with the pedophilia, I find this use of the word alarmingly similar to other religious organizations, which have turned my stomach.
In the edition published in 1999 (sometimes called the 2000 edition), there is a disclaimer to chapter 4 which states that “formal” initiations should not take place into a coven which practices the great rite until someone is 18. An explination is given which states that fathers are being sued for giving their childrens baths. However, another chapter rather clearly makes that disclaimer to chapter 4 seem insincere at best:
Chapter VII – Perils and Precautions – All quotes and page numbers are from the 1972 edition of The Witches Bible.
“At the end of this chapter you will find an additional section covering the problems you may encounter with the local temporal and civil authorities. Precautions and cures for these ills do not fall within the scope of the present book, but on your getting a good lawyer”.
Section title “Temporal Authorities and Law” – page 181 at the end of the chapter VII.
“First and foremost, check your local laws so that if you have to bend or break any of them, at least you’ll know the risks you run. The following should be checked.”
“Carnal Knowledge
The daughter of a local Wiccan couple wishes to join the coven. She is sixteen. May she join? The answer in most states is that when she is a member, all of the men of the coven could be jailed; no amount of formal releases properly signed will help. So if she wishes to join, all the male members of the coven must sign an agreement absolving the other members from responsibility.”
Why do the authors seem to think only the men could be jailed over this? Why not the female members as well? The only thing I can come up with is that elsewhere the Frosts explain how homosexuality in their religion is not permitted. As best I can figure, the signed agreement is thought to absolve the female members of the coven for the crimes of the men who will be having sex with her. Note that “all male members” must sign the thing. Not just some or the one who will sexually initiate her. No no, all men must sign it.
Page 189 – Forming and Running a Coven
Speaking about things that potential coven members must be told prior to joining, the Frosts list:
“Their bodies will be used in ceremonies that
a. sap the vital power,
b. are dangerous,
c. require sex with assigned partners.
Ok, the above is just about sick enough to illustrate my point that Gavin and Yvonne Frost knew exactly what they had instructed. Sure, in this situation they are speaking about a hypothetical 16 year old, but elsewhere they are clear that the average age of a coven member in a coven that is 5 years old is 15 years of age. For there to be a 15 year old in that coven, should this 16 year old join there would have to be a 14 year old. If there were an elder in the coven, well do the math. Children would have to be much, much younger than the average of 15 now wouldn’t they?
But there are other quotes from earlier in the book, which might cause one to think that the illness runs even deeper. Note that above, they did say the child was the “daughter” of a Wiccan couple. In chapter IV we see other instructions concerning Wiccan children which might be related to the above quote.
Chapter IV
“The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “
Oh, but it gets even worse.
Pregnancy - Page 181
“Towards the end of their term, though, when they find they are unable to participate fully in coven activities and are worried about the future, they sometimes panic and sue for child support. Therefor, all single women joining the coven must sign a release.”
So as I understand this instruction, it is sometimes necessary to bend or break the law if you want to practice the Frosts Wicca. Sex with children is illegal, so when you go around breaking the law you should make sure the women folk are protected from charges of child molestation and rape and you should be equally sure that the women joining the coven (including the children evidently) sign a release protecting the men folk from child support.
Were you bored last night?
Fenix, Mr. Drew wasn't bored, he felt a compulsion. Note how long his post was. Such long diatribes are typical of mental illness. See, for example, the long letters of Theodore Kaczynski, the so-called Unibomber.
Mr. Drew, of course, hasn't sent anonymous bombs to anyone, although his posts might encourage a mentally-disturbed person to do so.
Unfortunately, the compulsion Mr. Drew feels won't go away on its own and it could lead to him harming, or attempting to harm someone else or himself. Further, his obsession with the Frosts could quickly shift to someone else, meaning that if he does become violent, it could result in attacks on a family member.
Mr. Drew is in deep need of psychological help. Instead, in our internet age, he is posting his illness all over the internet. His lack of success may lead to frustration that could result in a violent reaction.
I certainly hope he gets the help he needs before someone gets hurt.
I find it very curious that Mr. Drew continually demands answers to his questions, but never bothers to answer any that are posted up here.
Mr. Anderson, my mother has extensive knowledge of psychology and I was fortunate enough to help her in her studies for her degree. We've also been trained as pastoral counselors - legal in our state with our church charter. Mr. Drew is one that we would refer to a licensed psychiatrist. His issues are definitely beyond my capability. I believe you are correct in your assessments. My mother and I have also discussed his actions, and we feel he could become a danger to those close to him.
In the meantime, he's creating a lot of damage for the Pagan community. There really aren't very many people that are familiar with the Frosts' works, and I'm sure that doesn't bother them at all. They have their paths, their teachings, and they have covered all the bases on what is and isn't legal in this country. I've been reading some of the things he and his followers have been posting over at his blog site, and wow - I would be embarrassed to call some of those people Pagan. Most of them know nothing of the Frosts or have even read their books, yet they have no qualms with posting up ugly diatribes, wishing ill will upon them. They are taking everything at face value and not doing their own research. And I fear they are being misguided.
I've never had much use for people that won't learn for themselves. I can only make my presence known so many times before I get tired of the ignorance.
Fenix – I don’t answer questions? Maybe I am missing something. Am I estranged from my daughter, answered that no. Am I a drug felon, answered that no. Does my daughter have a restraining order against me, answered no. What about my other daughter, answered that I do not have another daughter. Are you a cyber squatter, answered that I can only think of one domain and I gave that to the guy when I learned he was folk, even wrote about it in a book. So I am not sure why you would say I am being evasive unless you think that you can change peoples opinion by stating a falsehood over and over again.
Why is it nobody who defends the Frosts wants to discuss the matter I have taken issue with, that being the content of the book? Why is it nobody who defends the Frosts wants to discuss what so many others take issue with? I am rather confused as to why it is that the people who defend the Frosts simply want to attack the people who take issue with the book rather than address those issues.
Question: Do people believe the material is pedophilic in nature without the added disclaimer of 2000?
Question: Do people feel the brief disclaimer about how one could get sued for such actions was enough to make the book a good representation of the foundation of the Wiccan religion?
Do folk believe it is acceptable in our community to sell an instructional manual on sexually initiating children?
Fine, here we go:
"Question: Do people believe the material is pedophilic in nature without the added disclaimer of 2000?"
Not my call. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not comfortable with it, I don't practice it, not my path. Perhaps you should take this up with an attorney.
"Question: Do people feel the brief disclaimer about how one could get sued for such actions was enough to make the book a good representation of the foundation of the Wiccan religion?"
Have you found people saying this is a good representation of Wicca? Honestly, I don't think it is a good representation, even though I'm not Wiccan. That does not mean my friends, the Frosts, are criminals.
"Do folk believe it is acceptable in our community to sell an instructional manual on sexually initiating children?"
I don't think it's acceptable to have access to many things, such as books on how to make bombs, methamphetamines, torture people, the list goes on. Yet it's out there, for anyone to read. Should we protest these things as well? Fortunately, I do know how to think for myself and determine what material I wish to expose myself - and my children - to.
Hopefully that's not too confusing for you. You seem to get that way a lot.
Fenix - You missed a few of those questions.
About feeling things are wrong but choosing to do nothing about it, I think the book is a pedophilic instructional. So I protest it. It’s not that much of a thing. The Frosts claim they founded my religion. The Frosts claim that book contains the initial teachings (founding teachings) of the Church and School of Wicca. I run my mouth because I am in great disagreement that my religion was founded on a tradition which involves the sexual initiation of children.
Wicca was not founded in pedophilic initiations. If the Frosts want to explain themselves, maybe I will feel differently. But as of yet, I see no explanation. Nothing that tells the world that what they claim is not true. Nothing that apologizes for the content of chapter 4. Nothing that explains the disclaimer being added in the year 2000.
Instead, I see accusations and innuendo about my character and a deliberate effort to change to the subject to if they are or are not guilty of pedophilia. Such has never been my focus. In fact, the Frosts themselves are not my focus. It is the trend in my community not to discuss such things as what the Frosts wrote.
That is changing sharply. Folk are talking about it and they are getting louder and louder.
This isn't about your character. It is about your mental illness that is filled with paranoia and obsession.
Obsessions don't go away, the change into something else, usually focused around something nearby.
PLEASE get some therapy that will help you with your mental disease before your obsessions focus on someone close to you and you end up harming a friend or family member. Nobody wants to see you in jail for harming one of your children.
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