Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Our Fabulous Trip

Fabulous! Wonderful! Or (as the Brits might say), Wizard! Bril! (that's brilliant)
What other fulsome, overblown adjectives can we use? It sounds pretty gushy, but mere words fall short of our pleasure in recent travel experiences. We've just put in something over 2,000 miles on the road, in something over a week. It was a great trip, thanks to Ronn (Roy) and Raven of Fireheart, and to Patty of Greenleaf.
The weather was more than kind, affording us dry roads all the way, as well as the Mother's beautiful autumn color scheme. The storms that were supposed to happen missed us somehow. An enormous heartfelt "thank you" to the Guides for all that. The magical site at Fireheart took our breath away. Praise and gratitude beyond words to the Two who steward and cherish the site for the pleasure of the rest of us. It is a world apart, where people felt safe to circle, to dance, and to visit the Underworld at the turn of the year.
A couple of images stay with us : the amazing skills that gave us the gift of carved pumpkin guardians; indeed the wonderful attitude of all participants; the feathered ones in the trees who felt safe enough almost to mingle right in with us featherless ones; the generosity and kindnesses without number of Roy and Raven.
Our hosts had arranged an open meeting at Toledo's Unity Temple and had well publicized the meeting and its address. Attendance there was all we could have hoped for, both in number and in openness. An image from that meeting will remain long with us : the blonde lady who couldn't believe that she could make the Crooks radiometer spin at law-breaking speed when she pointed her right hand at it, yet couldn't make it move with her left hand. Sic semper in mundo, we suppose. Who says the magic doesn't work? Our gratitude too to Reverend Lynn for the use of the church's chapel and for her enthusiastic welcome to us.
Then off at the crack of dawn for the long drive to Springfield, Missouri, through countryside just beginning to show its autumn colors. In Terre Haute, Indiana, we stumbled across one of the best (east) Indian restaurants in the United States, the Taj Majal. Namaste. Then it was on around St. Louis and into Missouri proper. The Witches' Ball there included a handfasting that was also a marriage recognized in the civil/legal dimension of life. Our warmest and best wishes go to the handfasting couple, and to the minister who shared words from a beautiful and moving script. What an evening. The Ball's organizers brought us a karaoke interlude. Many, many people attended from all over. Costumes were creative and picturesque--and that's an understatement. Three generations of families attended, gladdening our own hearts at the continuity they represented. Our thanks here go to Patty and the Greenleaf Coven group for all their work and preparation. Yes, we had a few American Legionnaires bug-eyed (it was their hall that Greenleaf rented), but they suffered no harm.
At the Annual General Meeting of the Church of Wicca, also held in Springfield, many topics were discussed. Attendees agreed not to change our first-degree initiation but to make it plainer to neophytes that it very closely resembles the third-degree rite of the Gardnerian tradition. Attendees also want to put out some kind of friendship certificate. Various groups would volunteer and commit to be f r i e n d s of other groups; that if they disagreed with other groups they would do so only in private, that they would do no public washing of dirty linen because such washing only weakens our Wiccan position and has already cost a couple of people jobs.
Redaers of this site are probably aware already of the fact that bringing religion into situations of employment, divorce, housing, and the like constitutes religious discrimination and instantly makes the discussion a federal case.
In this regard too, many self-appointed Christian reformers--current-day Cotton Mathers, no less--are changing or editing Wiccan writeups on the web. When you see such a thing happen, please, please change them back. A typical example : A job applicant says, "I'm Wiccan," and the personnel staff say, "Oh, I'll look that up. We'll call you." Then the staff sees some scurrilous comment about the Craft ... and it's all over with.
Rhiannon, in the course of our hegira we had several discussions about theories on the baton de commandment. One remark of note: "Well, I was always convinced that archaeologists can't tell the difference between a cave and a hole in the ground." (We apologize to any readers who are archaeologists.) "I'll give you the idea of notches for animal husbandry if you'll give me the idea that the animals included humans."
Blessed be those who keep their minds open. Blessed be those who live ethically.
Gavin and Yvonne

42 comments:

ajdrew said...

Back to the "baton de commandment" again and again. Is this your explination for why you included instructions for making dildos from nylon cord, dowel rod, and wax in your Witch's Bible? Is this why you seem to have instructed that such be used by and on children prior to their sexual initiation?

Please explain your selves clearly.

http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/

wushih said...

Thanks to the Frosts for coming to our humble Witches Ball. Everyone is always thrilled to see them again and they looked well, if a little tired from all the driving. We love you guys. Greenleaf Coven and the surrounding Pagan Community are not the kind of people who cause a lot of trouble or spit into the pot just to make it taste bad. Our policy has always been to maintain positive energy, to get along with our neighbors and to do our very best at work. After all, we have to live here and raise our children here. We obviously do not hide our faith - after all, we have a television show here in Springfield - but we also have no need to stir up trouble just to get attention.

Which brings me to Mr. Drew's most recent post. He must be a very unhappy man who posts stuff just to get attention. If he was really concerned about child molestation and endangerment, I think he would play less of the publicity game and do some volunteer work to benefit children in his own town. Can't do that, huh? Too real, huh? It must be a lot more fun to take pictures of drunken and stoned revelry so everyone can see how irresponsible he is. So embarrassing.

Mr. Drew, I see that you made it a point to be the first poster on this subject. That must make you feel good.

Whatever. The good folks around here are pretty much all embarrassed by your behavior and worry that you are doing more damage to the faith than you realize. Or maybe you do realize and just don't care.

And..finally...my kids and grandkids still remain unmolested. Tsk.

Edward_Anderson said...

Wushih,Mr. Drew's need to make the first post, and his statement that he's going to be fixated on the same thing "again and again" is just a sign of his obsessive illness. He deserves pity as much as anyone suffering from a serious disease. Unfortunately, his disease--which he thinks is about the Frosts when it's really about him--has the result of trying to destroy Paganism. It's up to real Pagans to show just how disruptive and evil his behavior is, and just how bad an effect he's having on the growth of Paganism among the few who read his words.

wushih said...

Since we cannot control him and he certainly does not want to be healed, I think our best path is to continue to present ourselves to the general public (and our neighbors and our fellow employees and the teachers at school and the mailman and the trash collectors and whoever else) as the people we really are. Or who our dogs think we are (insert chuckle here).

I really hope a lot of people will support the idea of a friendship oath. Of course, the people who want to cause trouble will just ignore such an oath and charge down their chosen path of destruction.

We just have to try our best. Here's an interesting thing: A few years ago, I retired from an agency that provides homes and support for disabled people. I was the only Pagan there and my boss told me that, if anyone gave me any trouble, I should let him know.

Actually, no one ever did.

Recently, I discovered that I needed to go back to work so I went back to the old agency and not only did they rehire me before I had even filled out the application but I have also found four other people there who wear the pentacle. Wowser!!

And these people are good, caring people who would NEVER behave like our Mr. Drew.

I wonder if he takes medication or gets any counseling. He needs it.

Edward_Anderson said...

I just had a sort of realization. There is a group that goes all over the country trying to tell people how terrible the Frosts are, accusing them of all sorts of crimes, and saying that Paganism is suffering because of them and their book. They are led by Mr. Drew.

Well, there is another group, the Westboro Baptist Church, that similarly goes all over the country (more in person as well as on the internet) trying to tell people how terrible Homosexuals are and how the country is suffering because of it. Their leader is a man named Fred Phelps.

I think it is very fair to state that Mr. Drew is the Fred Phelps of Paganism, leading a bunch of unthinking groupies/fundamentalists who ignore reason, logic, and fact.

Phelps and his "church" (which consists almost entirely of his extended family) recently lost a lawsuit for millions of dollars for protesting at the funeral of a soldier who died in Iraq even though the soldier wasn't gay.

Mr. Drew and his followers attack those who defend facts, science, and truth if they don't also blindly agree with him and his obsessions. It doesn't matter if they agree with the Frosts, only that they don't agree with his attacks on them.

Now that there is a precedent in law, I wonder how long it will be before Mr. Drew is on the losing end of a lawsuit?

Shadowhawk said...

We can only hope itssoon.. Altho when interviewd Shirley Phelps Roper said they will continue FuneralProtests.. Sad state of affairs in America.. But i guess what doesnt kill you makes you stronger

fenix said...

Ooooh, that's spooky - I had actually had something similar cross my mind today, too!

Glad Gavin and Yvonne made it home safely and had a good time.

And remember, hypothesis does not make a fact!

medicineheart said...

Ed-- thank you for the comparison of AJ to Fred Phelps! I can't help but keep chuckling over this-- even my catholic boyfriend understands the comparison and is chuckling himself to pieces on the couch. ehehh

To keep the comparisons going, Fred Phelps is a joke to laugh at.. just like AJ-- he's lost all credibility in the pagan community even amoungst the pagan leaders here-- I still hobnob with the leaders and still partake in discussions and still remain on the boards of organizations that I am affiliated with-- so HA! AJ-- I might get knocked down, but I got again, wiped myself off and kept going.

To me, what you did, in your own words, with the effigy's of the Frosts was more disgusting then my shooting at a paper poppet to cease and desist your actions-- NOT to stage a mock murder you moron! I am not the only one who did poppet magick to get you to stop! Go take your brain injury pills and move along.. you are a has-been author who isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Your books aren't selling, you are a joke to the community and an embarassement and a tiny fragment to the pagan web.

ajdrew said...

Wushih – Just trying to get an answer. In reference to the volunteer work, I have done a ton of it working with sex offenders in the hopes of decreasing recivitism. In fact, I have had conversations with sex offenders who have made reference to the Frost’s book as an example of why they thought Wicca encouraged such activities.

Mr Anderson said – “Mr. Drew and his followers attack those who defend facts, science, and truth if they don't also blindly agree with him and his obsessions.”

Oh please. What facts, science, and truth are you talking about. All I am doing is commenting negatively on a book which contains what most people seem to think is pedophilic instructions. Now I am Fred Phelps? Follow me on this one, homosexuality is legal and does not harm children. Pedophilia is illegal and harms children. People who speak out against homosexuality are attempting to repress a natural form of love. People who speak out against pedophilia and pedophilic instructions are attempting to repress, oh what is the point. I am arguing with a garden gnome.

Medicineheart – Hey, aren’t you the one that CUUPS booted to the curb?

Medicineheart said: “I am not the only one who did poppet magick to get you to stop!”

Yep, heap powerful mojo magic you got there. Much like what Shadowhawk warned me about coming from the Frosts themselves. Yet here I am, still doing what I do. Wow, how could that be? The answer is because you simplistic approach to magic is rather laughable. Which, btw, is why I participate here. It is entertaining.

In so far as being a “has-been author”, yep I haven’t tried to write in some time now. What does that have to do with anything?

Edward_Anderson said...

Mr. Drew, I have pointed out that you have not produced any evidence, logic, or science to support your obsession. You just keep repeating your claims without any proof. None. Nada.

Virtually everyone knows that Fred Phelps and his family/church are bonkers. More and more Pagans see the same fanaticism from you and your groupies.

wushih said...

Mr. Drew says: "In fact, I have had conversations with sex offenders who have made reference to the Frost's book as an example of why they thought Wicca encouraged such activities."

That's easy to say.

Why do I want to lump that statement in the same group as the statement that Mr. Drew made about "hundreds" of people coming forward saying they had been molested by the Frosts.

Can you prove either of these statements? No? I didn't think so.

Mom-E said...

Without any proof? All one has to do is open the book and read- that's proof enough. Whether the Frosts have engaged in the actions is IMO irrelevant to the point that the writings themselves are harmful. There are two issues here- whether the Frosts have *engaged* in child rape (and in light of no proof to that end, I'm not going to even touch on that point) and the point I'd *like* to address which is that of the writings encouraging what would be harmful to children. I've shown the book to various mental health professionals of various backgrounds and they've all agreed that such would be horribly traumatic.

If they intended the book to be addressing this practice in regard to consenting adults- then the term 'child' should not be used throughout. If they were intending to reference consenting adults- the phrases such as 'at the earliest possible age' and 'when a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present...' would not be used.

I have yet to see any actual address of these concerns by the Frosts. It would be nice if they would recognize such concerns and enter into a civilized and meaningful dialog about them. I think such a dialog would be far more constructive than what is happening here and now with the backbiting, the accusations and the drama. So- any chance of that Gavin & Yvonne? Would you care to address the concerns and objections to the specific wording and phrasing in this book directly?

fenix said...

I kind of take exception to referring to "the book" when it's actually "the chapter." The pages in question are actually a very small part of "the book."

I believe a lot of this was addressed years ago. That might be why the Frosts haven't addressed it. I imagine they're kind of tired of addressing and re-dressing the issue over and over again. Since we didn't have internet access thirty five years ago, getting the information researched has been slow, but we're getting there.

Edward_Anderson said...

Mom-E claims there are 2 issues here:
1) The writing is harmful
2) Whether they have committed a crime

There are lots of places in the world where words can get you thrown in prison. Iran. China. The former Soviet Union. Cuba. Indonesia.

Here in the U.S., people can be held responsible for what they right IF it can be shown that it has directly caused harm.

So Mom-E, all you have to do is provide us with some people who will testify that they were abused as children as a direct result of the Frost's book. If you cannot do that then the book is fine. If you can do that then the book should be pulled off the stands and they should stand trial for enticing child abuse. However, if you cannot prove that and still want the book gone then either admit that you are the same as those who want to ban Black Beauty, Harry Potter, and Tom Sawyer. Or simply move to Iran or Saudi Arabia, never go out in public unescorted, don't vote, don't drive a car, and be very happy.

Since you admit you have no proof of point two--or are too much of a coward "to even touch on that point"--it was irrelevant to bring it up except in an attempt to further tar the Frosts with unsubstantiated claims.

Hey, if they actually DID anything, I'm for having them arrested, tried, and if convicted, jailed. I'm against the lynching you and others are trying to do based on personal beliefs rather than any evidence.

Mom-E said...

Book, chapter- whatever. The chapter is in the book ;)

I don't buy the point that it's been addressed before. Maybe it has- but I'm not seeing it and I wasn't there at that time. I'm sorry- but if someone were accusing me of writing a child-rape instructional- the first thing I'd be doing is standing up to clarify exactly how that was NOT true and delving into the material to reference true intent. The point that they aren't tells me that either they mean it how it's being taken or they simply don't care. Unfortunately- being public figures, other people DO care and have a right to ask them to address these concerns- even if they were already addressed however many years ago. Some of us weren't around for the first go-around and don't have a transcript to read up on what they had to say during round 1. I think addressing it ON the net once and for all would be a good thing. Unfortunately not everyone can get out to see them in person to ask. And, if repeated rehashing is an issue- I'd think addressing it in text for all to see, once and for all might be a GOOD thing.

Unless they DO mean it like we're reading it.

Mom-E said...

Ed,

One of the wonderful points to living in the US is that we are able to give critical commentary to texts that we do not agree with. Am I suggesting that the Frosts should be jailed for what they've written? I am not a judge, nor do I play one on tv ;) However- given the severity of what they *have* written- I would think it would be wise for them to address it publically so that all can hear from *their* words what they were intending- rather than some of the more concerned out there taking it into their own hands and persueding the law to take a look and make a ruling.

For myself I am content to sit back and let my objections be known here and elsewhere- until such time as they choose to address the issue directly themselves. But others may be more motivated to take action. It would be nice to just get this over with and have some real dialog about what is really concerning people.

Again- whether they've acted on it or not- people have the right to protest and provide critical commentary. Or do you object to people voicing opinions and trying to engage in critical commentary and debate regarding the material?

Edward_Anderson said...

Mom-E, there is a radio law program that airs nationally on the weekends. On it, people often call up claiming they should get some money for some offense. The lawyer's response is always along the lines of "what proof do you have of financial loss as a result of this offense? No proof of loss, no court case."

You've got the same situation. You don't like what someone has written. Hey, I don't like the lies and insults and disgusting comments of Manne Coulter. But I can't prove that her writing has harmed me or anyone else. So there's no crime and no punishment for her crap.

Similarly, you and others have not provided so much as one person who has been abused as a child as a direct result of the book. Not a one. The book has been around for over 30 years and still, not a one. Since it is proven to be totally and absolutely ineffective (at least when it comes to encouraging and/or supporting so-called "child abuse") I've got no problem at all claiming that the book is a failure and people shouldn't waste their time with a failed book any more than they should waste their time with the ineffective cold fusion techniques of 1989 (well the attempts to recreate the experiment have been mixed--at best it needs rethinking).

But the question is, why aren't people focusing on other aspects of the book? The answer is because this has nothing to do with the Frosts. Attacking them is like attacking Valerie Plame because you're obsessed with her husband revealing the truth. Only instead of merely ruining Ms. Plame's career and possibly resulting in the deaths of dozens or hundreds of people giving us great undercover information, this is the obsession of one man and he doesn't care of Paganism is split and destroyed because of it.

This is all about Mr. Drew and his mental illness. It's about his incredible egotism and his I-don't-care-if-Paganism-is-destroyed attitude, as long as he gets his way. He failed at feeding his ego through his writing and hates that the Frosts (who, IMO, are just awful writers. Most of their recent stuff would never be published by anyone other than themselves) because they have fame while most Pagans ask "A.J. Who? Drew? Drew what?"

And it's people like yourself who, I truly believe, have good hearts, but have become Drew groupies, aping anything he writes, says, or does.

Richard Nixon once said that "If the president does something, that means it's legal." That is wrong. If the president does something that is contrary to the Constitution and the laws of the land, it is still illegal.

And if Mr. Drew says, "I'm just commenting about a book," that's simply not true. He has obsessed over the Frosts for years. He repeats himself constantly. He claims he has talked to people who used the Frosts as a support for abuse, but has never produced a name or given anyone a chance to interview them. He has attacked anyone and everyone who will not agree with him, insisting that if you don't agree with him you must be blindly following the Frosts. It's a sickness, and you have been sucked into it just like the fine people who are good Christians until they get into a group and become an unreasoning mob, targeting books like Harry Potter and the Teletubbies and Disneyland, insisting they either agree with the Christian leader or be destroyed.

It's sick, Mom-E. And you need an injection of truth, logic, independence, freedom, and the U.S. Constitution as a cure.

Rhiannon said...

Mr. and Mrs. Frost
I apologize for not getting to this sooner.

I hate the way one has to hide their religion in order to get a job. Religion should not be a factor in a job position. Ever! Just like sexual preferences or your own sex as in Male or Female. It should come down to if you as a person can do the job and do it well!

I really cannot agree with the statement of
"Well, I was always convinced that archaeologists can't tell the difference between a cave and a hole in the ground." (We apologize to any readers who are archaeologists.) "I'll give you the idea of notches for animal husbandry if you'll give me the idea that the animals included humans."

You wrote earlier that you self interpreted Marshak's book. That then makes the book invalid as documentation for your writings since the original interpretation was not used.
Marshak was very careful about what he wrote and how he interpreted it. He was backed up by well respected peers of the paleontology community. Saying that the “baton de commandment” was used as a sexual device and trying to pass that off as Marshak having written such is a lie. He didn’t even find it used as such in all the writings he did on it. I’m sorry but, with you making up your own interpretation, just invalidated your documentation. If the Good Witches Bible is/was written from your heart and that is truly the way you feel Wicca should be worship then just stand up proud and say so.

Oh and I think Teletubies should be illegal! They are really evil!

I don’t much care to deal with the some people. I would much rather have a good intelligent conversation if you understand what I mean. One reason why I walked away from one of the other blogs here.

Anyway I hope all had a great Samhain and are now looking forward to the New Year. I have a great many business adventures happening right now and I need to get back to filling those deals. Gods I would LOVE a vacation!
I look forward to more great discussions!

The Pagan Temple said...

What worries me, and really the only thing that worries me about this, is the possibility some people can always come forward and say "hey, I did this becasue of what I read in the Witches Bible". Or,

"such-and-such happened to me because of what so-and-so read in the Witches Bible".

There are plenty of people who might be willing to say that if they thought they might make a quick buck out of it, or some fame and notoriety.

That's why I say it wouldn't matter to me if somebody like that did come forward, because

a). Accusations are worthless without proof, and

b). Even if it were true, a molester will molest, and a rapist will rape, regardless of what he/she reads in a book at any given time.

I took the time over the last couple of days from Samhain to reflect and meditate, and whatnot.

I've come to the conclusion it's time to let this affair die the death it so richly deserves. Otherwise, by the time the next Samhain comes and goes, this discussion, with all it's circular logic and posturing, name-calling and temper tantrums, will be at the same level it is now, with absolutely nothing decided or accomplished one way or another.

I'm almost expecting somebody to say "just kill them all and let the Goddess sort them out."

It's time to move on.

Mister Anderson said...

PT wrote: "I've come to the conclusion it's time to let this affair die the death it so richly deserves."

I agree, it should.

The problem is that Mr. Drew (the Pagan Fred Phelps) is so obsessed with this that he won't let it die. And with his groupies lapping up everything he says, they won't let it die, either.

It will only end when Mr. Drew gets the therapy he needs or he has succeeded in destroying the Pagan movement. He will not allow any other options.

So I stand for freedom, truth, and Paganism, while he and his groupies stand only for Mr. Drew.

wushih said...

Is mom-e the same person as aimee? Same style, same material.

I agree wholeheartedly with Pagan Temple and Mr. Anderson that this whole subject should be dropped and Mr. Drew should get the therapy he so obviously needs. However, he's not going to go for this unless he gets arrested for something unpleasant or this kids get removed from his home.

They might be better off.

Carol Maltby said...

The Frosts said in the 2000 edition of the Witch's Bible, Forward to Chapter IV,

"This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca."

Are those of you who are Frost supporters saying that the Frosts lied about practicing the sexual initiation of children in a Church of Wicca coven, when they wrote the above passage? That they never actually practiced the sexual initiation of children at any time in their covens?

fenix said...

Carol Maltby said...
The Frosts said in the 2000 edition of the Witch's Bible, Forward to Chapter IV,

"This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca."

Are those of you who are Frost supporters saying that the Frosts lied about practicing the sexual initiation of children in a Church of Wicca coven, when they wrote the above passage? That they never actually practiced the sexual initiation of children at any time in their covens?

November 5, 2007 12:28 PM


Not that I'm a "supporter" of the Frosts, but I know I've been around them since 1972. I was never sexually initiated by them or anyone else. I can't speak for anyone prior to that, but I'm willing to bet there haven't been any children sexually initiated before that, either.

So which one will you be making a big deal out of this time - the lie or the implication?

Carol Maltby said...

So we can count you as saying the Frosts are liars, fenix?

I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is.

Either the Frost's Church of Wicca covens practiced sexual initiation of children at some point, as written in the book that tells how to practice their religion, or they did not.

Which is it?

Mister Anderson said...

Ms. Maltby just doesn't get it. The book--or at least that section of the book--is a failure because nobody is following it. It may have been their teachings, but nobody has or does follow it.

You can't beat your dead horse argument over and over but it doesn't change the fact that neither you nor anyone else has ever produced any evidence that any child abuse ever occurred as a direct result of the book.

What Ms. Maltby doesn't realize is the the real abuser, here, is Mr. Drew. He's abusing civil law (through attempted restraint of trade) and the U.S. Constitution.

Of course, in his case this is understandable. To him, the law doesn't matter. To him, the Constitution doesn't matter. All that matters to him is, well, him. He is desperately mentally ill, suffering from severe obsessions. When a person has this illness they will allow nothing to get in their way. Not logic. Not reason. Not law. Not democracy. Not family. Nothing. He is more than willing to destroy them all as long as he gets his way. He will destroy all of Paganism (or attempt to) if Pagans don't agree with him.

There are a small few who have fallen victim to this abuse. These groupies will believe and do anything Mr. Drew (the Pagan Fred Phelps) says. Right now this is sharing bile, just as people such as Ms. Maltby do. But the mind-set of such groupies leads right to the next step and the behavior of the so-called Manson Family. Good people were suckered in and abused by Charles Manson into doing and saying whatever he wanted. The only difference between them and people such as Ms. Maltby is the degree.

Ms. Maltby, if you really want to help people, get Mr. Drew into therapy and get involved in organizations that support freedom and democracy rather than joining the fundamentalists and facist book burners.

fenix said...

Did I not answer for myself? I don't know about the years prior to 1972 - I was not "deflowered" or initiated as a child.

Carol Maltby said...

Edward, do I understand correctly that you are saying that you don't believe any children were ever sexually initiated in the Frosts' tradition?

And therefore that you don't believe that the Frosts are telling the truth when they say that initiatory sex with children was ever practiced by a Frost coven, even though they say that's what they practiced in their book?

Now wushih, do I remember correctly that you were a bit confrontational with the Frosts about the child sexual initiation you'd heard about? And they responded okay, they wouldn't?

So do I put down that you believed the Frosts told the truth about having practiced sexual initiation of children?

Carol Maltby said...

fenix, I understand that you say there was never any sexual misconduct with you.

I'm asking your opinion about whether the Frosts might have been telling the truth (or not) about practicing child sexual initiation as part of the teachings of their tradition.

Knowledge Is Power said...

On the Baton de Commandment...
Can anyone explain why many of them have pictures of animals etched onto them and also, what of the theory that they disappeared at about the same time that the Atlatl appeared?

Carol Maltby, I read on another blog where you said if it was spelled correctly, it brought up over 1000 hits, the Baton de Commandment. Would you mind providing some links? I'm going to do a major search in the library in a few days myself, but would like to see what's online.
Thankyou.

Knowledge Is Power said...

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-1496%28196509%2F10%291%3A65%3C140%3A1%27BDC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

I hope this works, finally, I did find a reference to one, and of it's use depicted in a cave drawing. It was apparently a spear thrower.

Knowledge Is Power said...

http://www.turcantabria.com/Datos/Historia-Arte/Cuevas/Cuevas%20Altamira/altamira-i.htm

Here is a link to the art of Altimira and the Baton.

Mister Anderson said...

KIP: the Batons, as clearly written in the first URL you gave. state that they come from a prehistoric period. That means they come before writing.

And that means any comments on them are guesses on the part of researchers. Anyone can say anything about them and it is just as valid a guess as any other guess. Archeologists and anthropologists make assumptions that may be accepted, but it is still only a guess.

fenix said...

I don't think there are any answers that will make anyone happy about the the pages everyone keeps referencing in the GWB. It doesn't matter what I say, what mom(WuShih) says or what the Frosts say. This isn't even about getting an answer. More and more, what I see is the need to rile a bunch of people up over something from the Seventies that has no bearing on anything anyone does today or - as far as I know - did way back in the day.

Did you know that until Drew and Archaeus started this little campaign, most people hadn't even read the book? Of course, now a LOT of people have had opportunity to read just those pages, so everyone that's been posting those pages may have very well created their own self-fulfilling prophesy - that someone would get hold of it and actually do the ritual. Makes me wonder about the true motivation here.

Who are the criminals? Why, when there was no proof, was this whole campaign even began? I've seen the posts on Pagan Nation calling for a return to vigilante justice because "the system doesn't work," and "we must take care of our own." That's a very dangerous approach, especially when you have nothing in the way of proof.

If you are only taking exception to the basis of history, then fine - please make your references as such. Asking about child sexual initiation continues to create sensationalism and is turning this whole thing into some weird version of a Pagan "National Enquirer," - a bunch of accusations and zero proof to back it up.

wushih said...

Carol Maltby,

Confrontational? I don't think so.

You have misunderstood and misrepresented my statements. I certainly hope you have not done this on purpose.

I read the book and informed the Frosts that I was not interested in the subject you seem to be so intensely interested in. Gavin did NOT say, "Okay, we won't do that" or "Okay, we will stop doing that" or even "You don't have to do that."

There was no indication nor implication that something was being done or not done.

What Gavin said was, "Okay, do what you think is best for your group." And we did. We are a family oriented Pagan Community that is raising our kids to be healthy adults.

Please do not interpret anything I say to suit your purposes.

Knowledge Is Power said...

143. 'Le baton de commandement.'
Leon Underwood
Man, Vol. 65, Sep. - Oct., 1965 (Sep. - Oct., 1965), pp. 140-143
doi:10.2307/2796077
This article consists of 4 page(s).
"...But although the ancient tool form was not recognized, the evidence of it's use was there to see, in the cave drawings.

The static realism as idealized in the drawing of Altamira is, stylistically, anterior to the dynamic realism as idealized at Lascaux. Between them lay an evolution in hunting-weapon range, which the baton-as a spear thrower-explains. The art of Altamira when viewed as against the art of the historical past as a whole, is seen to be in the same phase on its cycle of style as the Elgin Marvles, and the Sistine Chapel painting, on theirs. This prehistoric are cannot then be held to be 'magical' in purpose, unless Classical and Renaiissance art are too. And this would give another meaning to magic.

What prompted the labelling of of a tool as a 'magic wand' in the first place? Was it the engravings of animals on the shaft? If so, then the term magic was used to mask the true value of art-which is not the currency of science."

Mister Anderson, what part of the fact that there's a picture of it being used as a spear thrower drawn by the very people who used it don't you understand? If you don't believe me, go onto the website and look for yourself.

Mister Anderson said...

KIP, just because somebody draws a picture does not mean it represents reality. That is an assumption which can neither be proved or disproved because it comes from prehistoric times.

It could be symbolic. It could be the artists imagination. It could be a couple of guys sitting around saying, "Hey! I got an idea that's gonna drive people crazy in a few thousand years" and laughing over a cold brew (beer was apparently a popular drink long ago).

Okay. The last possibility is a gag. But you can't disprove it and I can't prove it. That's why it's called "PRE" historic. If we knew exactly what it meant it would be part of history.

Bubba said...

Carol,
Wushih is right; it was not her, but Fenix who said "For the record, my mother did read the Witch's Bible - in it's original form - and flat out told the Frosts she refused to participate in the "deflowering" ritual and would not subject her children to it, either. They said, "ok."

So if she is saying this didn't happen, then Fenix must be a liar.

fenix said...

-- Bubba said...
Carol,
Wushih is right; it was not her, but Fenix who said "For the record, my mother did read the Witch's Bible - in it's original form - and flat out told the Frosts she refused to participate in the "deflowering" ritual and would not subject her children to it, either. They said, "ok."

So if she is saying this didn't happen, then Fenix must be a liar.

November 7, 2007 1:50 PM --

Whuh?

Ok, well, WuShih does happen to be my real, biological mother, so she would know what was going on, don't you think? And I'm confused - what am I lying about again?

wushih said...

What? Liars?

People calling people liars? People who can't or won't understand statements made in good faith - true statements, by the way? People who name-call? People like this impress me sooo much.

Should I tell you what kind of impression you are making?

Last time I heard this kind of name calling and attacks was in middle school. Most people grow up and leave that sort of foolishness behind. Apparently, Carol and Bubba have not.

Grow up.

Mstr. E. Anderson said...

Ms. Maltby, in re-reading this thread I notice that I didn't respond to a direct question from you. I apologize.

You asked, "...are saying that you don't believe any children were ever sexually initiated in the Frosts' tradition?

And therefore that you don't believe that the Frosts are telling the truth when they say that initiatory sex with children was ever practiced by a Frost coven, even though they say that's what they practiced in their book?"

To which I have to respond, did you actually read the book or are you just repeating what Mr. Drew told you?

You see, your post is based on an unstated assumption: the Frosts invented their tradition. Therefore, if it was ever practiced it must have been practiced after the Frosts created it.

If you had read the book, you would know that the Frosts claim that their tradition is based on a very old tradition. Considering that puberty rites were practiced all over the word and are still practiced in non-industrialized areas, I see no reason not to believe that such was the case in the tradition that the Frosts follow.

Frankly, I don't know if such a ritual was performed by Pagans in the system that the Frosts eventually made public. What I do know is that even though the Mafia killed many people to try to keep them from revealing their secrets, the secrets were eventually revealed. What I do know is that even with the incredible power of the Catholic church, numerous people who were abused as children eventually came forward to confront their abusers. And what I also know is that after more than 30 years of being published, not one person has come forth to claim they were abused as a child as a direct result of the book.

Therefore, as I have stated, that aspect of the Frosts book has been a failure. There is no evidence that anybody followed the information in the book and practiced it. That means there has been no abuse caused by that book. If you can provide evidence otherwise I'll be glad to change this position, but so far, neither you nor Mr. Drew nor anyone else has provided a shred of evidence that could survive in court.

Earlier you posted that you're just giving a "critical commentary" about a book. That's not true. I've read critical commentaries of thousands of books and in my entire life I've never seen a critic repeat himself or herself for years, saying the same thing. Not once.

Interestingly, your claim to just giving a "critical commentary" is identical to the claim made by Mr. Drew who clearly has all the symptoms of the mental illness of obsession. Therefore, you seem to simply be one of his groupies.

If you really care about him be aware that obsessions can quickly change. And when people have an obsessive mental illness and can't function to support their obsession they can become violent. If Mr. Drew's obsessions switch to those he can have an effect on--his family and friends--it's possible that he could become violent with them.

If you care about him then be aware that this is simply Mr. Drew's obsession and you are not helping him by becoming co-dependent with him. If you want to help and possibly prevent him from harming his family, urge him to get into competent therapy. If he is in therapy, he should find a different therapist who can help him with this illness.

The Pagan Temple said...

Bravo, Mr. Anderson, very well put. Blaming the Frosts for what might have been an ancient tradition they went public with, would be tantamount to accusing Charles LeLand or Raven Grimassi of poisoning Italian landowners simply because they practice Stregheria.

Shadowhawk said...

All i can say is 2 sayings come to mind Like a house of Csrds weall must fall.. and All good things come to those who wait.. Drew and his Nazi goosesteppers can argue. cry . moan. and call me stupid all they want. But Drew will one day bite the wrong hand and he will be dealt with. So now its a matter of sitting back and watching Drew and his Drewbie crew implode