Wednesday, October 17, 2007

responses to responses

As Yvonne holds her head and says, what have we spawned?, we offer something of a roundup of our responses ... to responses .. to one or another of our rambling blogs. We roughed it out in the car on the way to do self-directed aquarobics, our geriatric effort to stay ahead of things if even a little.
You may all know we rae soon going on the road, so we'll be away for about two weeks.

Let us address first the incoming comments that are the easiest to respond to which.
Pagan Temple: If we inadvertently flamed you, we apologize. We don't profess to eb sophisticated in the ways of the Net (gasp). Just to show our ignorance, what specific book and burn do you have in mind?
We were glad to see mention of the Little Ice Age and the Black Death. Personally we think that Catholic efforts to reestablish authority in the years following the Black Death set the scene for most of the later burnings. During the plague the Church and its priests lost their authority because prayers and burning candles were so visibly ineffective.
Rhiannon, what's your take on that? Thank you so much for your long piece on the law. It was fantastic and fascinating. How on earth did you put that much material on the blog? Is it a matter of seven fingers on each hand? Our mind is reeling.
Of course like Brehon law, most of the old law was passed down orally and codified by Christian monks only much later. The Welsh law, also relatively late, was at least put onto parchment at the White House on the River Taff -- a law which "shall endure until a better be written." So far as I can tell, neither the Brehon law nor the law of Hywel Dda included much in the way of judicial murder. The Welsh which I read many years ago in a Penguin (Pelican?) translation spent a lot of time on what should happen if the cat you bought didn't perform catching mice, for instance, or in a case of rape, who got the testicles.
Anyway, as I remember it I found very few cases of judicial murder.
The odler we get, the more important history seems to become. We're only sorry that we probably won't have time to complete our own studies of it -- as if such a thing were possible. The misinformation in history staggers the mind. Way too much of it is what Piggott calls history-as-wished-for. Every historian has an agenda; that comes as no surprise. Typical examples:
1. The claim that in the Burning Times most women who were burned were the community's midwives. They weren't. It was the lying-in maids or wet nurses, who were called in to prop up the new mother and the household when mother was weakened by childbirth and who knows what else. They didn't know diddly, of course, about prenatal care, about nutrition, about hygiene adn sanitation, about anything. Why was the easiest target? The lying-in maid, of course. She was the stsranger in the house; she often had no one to act in her defense; she would have been the easiest to replace.
2. The claim that the "Malleus Maleficarum" was used to burn "witches". Inquisitors had far better and more detailed texts, frequently updated form headquarters. Sso what was the Malleus? It was what the publishing industry calls today a one-hander for the monks and priests. Made literacy worth while.
3. The claim that Torquemada caused the burning of hundreds of "witches". He didn't. His record shows zero witches burned. He was after conversos who had slid bacward into Jewish religious practices.
4. The claim that the church provided sanctuary for those who could get into the building. It didn't. Five thousand innocent people -- well, guilty of speaking Oc -- wre dragged out of the church in Beziers and killed because they spoke Oc, on the orders of the pope's legate Arnaud Amaury. His is the line:
"Kill them all. God will know his own."
The bodies were thrown down the hill from the church onto the road and into the river. We Frosts walked that hillside and wept.
We are also amazed continually that people have no conception whatever of the modern history of Wicca in the 20tha nd 21st centuries. Gerald Gardner did not invent Wicca. In fact there wree as many as a hundred covens running in the British Isles in the 1930s, according to Dame Sybil Leek's feisty mother Louisa.
Childoffire, we don't choose supporters. They choose to espouse or not to espouse our ideas. "Choosing supporters" makes Yvonne think of hiring mourners for a funeral.

The garden and canning: We normally freeze the snow peas and the bush beans (excuse the four-letter word) and can tomatoes and make salsa using the tomatoes and the chilis. (Note: not chiles or chillies or any other variant. The edible is chili; the nation is Chile. Chilly is a physical response to temperature. But let's move on.) We're drying the left-over peppers this year. Gavin will be doing a rant on this site on canning. He calls it bottling in his cunning British way.

Hey, guys adn gals -- we think we have the beginnings of a good thing going here, but we have a problem; so help us, please.
When someone asks a question, if we can we will answer to the bests of our long experience and our very biased view of inner and outer worlds. If we are wrong, correct us with fact and references. Some of our answers will inevitably cause some to think we are flaming someone or some group. This seems to be especially true of the ladies, Goddess bless them. From the beginning we have had a partnership-path, equality bias. Please understand this. When we think it warranted, we always send querents to other groups that may well be more appropriate groups that suit their quest better than the Church and School of Wicca may do. We realize only too well that occasionally individuals choose to respond to our blogs and to the comments of othere readers in a deliberately negative and flaming way. That's their problem. What if we ignore tham and get on with exchanging good information? We ourselves already feel enriched by the interest and scholarship of responders to this site.
Blessed be until anon. Gavin and Yvonne

86 comments:

The Pagan Temple said...

Gavin, Yvonne-

"Pagan Temple: If we inadvertently flamed you, we apologize. We don't profess to eb sophisticated in the ways of the Net (gasp). Just to show our ignorance, what specific book and burn do you have in mind?"

I never felt that I was being flamed by you at any time. I am not sure I understand what you mean, however, by your question, what book and burn do I have in mind? I looked through some of the older posts, and don't have a clue.

Are you referring to my feud with Archaeus? If so, no problem, I do tend to get carried away at times.

I think I can answer another one of your questions though, to Rhiannon, and at the same time give you a little help in getting more familiar with the Internet and computer functions.

You asked her how she could put such a long post on one comment. I think she probably copied and pasted.

It is a very handy thing to know how to do when you are reposting information from another source, or if you are reposting some of your own material, as it saves you the trouble of having to retype all of it.

What you do is simply

1.hold your mouse over the area at which you would like to copy.

2.Then, holding down on your left clicker, you move it over the passage. You will notice that a blue streak will run through it. This is called "highlighting"

3.When you get to the end of the section you want to copy, release the left click function.

4.Then, go up to the part of your page that says "edit", at the top left. Click on that, and a menu will drop down.

5.Click where it says "copy", and the passage you have just highlighted will be copied.

6.Then, go to the place you would like to transfer the copied passage. Click on with your mouse to the exact place you want the copied passage to appear.

7.Then, go back up to where it says "edit" and click on it again.

8.Then, click where it says "paste". When you do that, the copied text will appear wherever you have previously set your mouse to where you want it to appear.

I would advise you to practice copying short lines at a time, until you get the hang of it. Once you get more comfortable with the process, you can copy longer sections.

All of the text you wish to copy does not have to be immediately visible, by the way. As long as you see the beginning portions, as you continually highlight each successive word and line, when you get to the bottom of the page, the page will automatically scroll up as you continue copying, until you have finished what you wanted to copy.

To give you an idea of how handy this function is, that entire passage that Rhiannon put on her blog, she probably copied in two minutes, maybe even less than a minute.

Once it is copied, of course, it is stored. If you have Microsoft Word, for example, it will automatically be stored on your Microsoft Word clipboard.

When you paste it, it takes no time, it is all pasted automatically, almost instaneously.

If I were you, though, I would as I said start out copying and pasting small sections, until you get proficient at it. Sometimes, I still have trouble copying and pasting, and it will take me two or three attempts before I get it just right.

Also, this will help you in such matters as putting links on your blog, or other such things that require you to copy codes, and then paste them into your template.

If you need any help with that, let me know, and I will try to walk you through it.

Have a good trip.

The Pagan Temple said...

Okay, I was having a real blonde moment last night. I know what you mean now. Actually, it occurred to me sometime after I signed off last night. I was rather tired.

I'm writing a novel and publishing it on my blog in segments. Right now it is in the first draft stage. It is about as explicit, violent, blood curdling and nerve wracking as anything out there-or at least I am trying to make it so.

You kind of inadverdantly reminded me of that, whether it was your intention or not, in your response to my misgivings as to whether The Wicker Man was a positive image for pagans to use to represent as an ideal pagan community.

But no, I didn't feel that you were attempting to flame me. If you had been, though, it would have been a good point.

Shadowhawk said...

Gavin,,You werent flaming Pagan Temple what it was , was Ed Anderson and a Drewbie were debating that the solution that the Drewbies find most appealing is banning your books and to dare say they would even burn them as an act of solidarity as upstanding Wiccan citizens.
They tryed that with Catcher in the Rye, but it didnt Work
Blessings of the Gods to All

The Pagan Temple said...

Hey, where everybody go off to, yo? Gavin, Yvonne, if you take the time to read this somewhere along your trip, check out my latest post, I gave you a shout out to this blog, a bunch of them. You too, Debra Ravenswood.

fenix said...

Gavin and Yvonne are on the road right now. Not sure when they'll be able to get to a computer again, but we will be sure and offer one of ours when they get to Springfield.

I'm still here - I just keep thinking, "I should put something on here - oh, wait, I'll be able to talk to Gavin and Yvonne in a few days, anyway!"

ajdrew said...

http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/10/26/gavin-and-yvonne-frost-at-irwb-2k7/

I just wanted to say thanks to Gavin and Yvonne Frost for attending this year’s International Real Witches Ball. We would also like them for posing so colorfully. Notice Gavin’s hand on his crotch. It seems he just couldn’t control himself when Yvonne decided to sit in my lap. Gavin, you randy gent.

fenix said...

I'm so glad we're having ritual tonight. See everyone at the Ball!

wushih said...

Poor little mentally ill Mr. Drew. I wonder what he is going to do to get attention after Samhain is over. His childish behavior and his attention getting picture and actions just kind of make me feel sad and sorry for him.

Poor AJ. Poor wife. Poor children. What will he do?

Not to worry, he'll think of something to attack or someone to fight with. He's resourceful. He's driven. He's nuts.

On to another subject. The Really Unreal Witches Ball was great. No one picketed us, no one insulted us, no cross words or accusations were expressed and old friends came from near and far. Gavin and Yvonne were charming and funny. It's so good to see them again. Much love and Blessed Be to all you guys.

Shadowhawk said...

AJ go to YOUTUBE i made a little VIDEO about you.. its titled Shadowhawks Response to Shamanshadow.. You Sick Fuck

fenix said...

We had a good time last night. We got a lot accomplished, and I'm looking forward to the next few months. Much to do, much to do!

Thank you, Gavin and Yvonne, for making the trip over. It was wonderful to be able to sit down and talk with you about the many things we did discuss.

As for the event in Ohio, well, I hope you have a good time. And I hope you can have a clear conscience after tonight. I know I will.

ajdrew said...

Wushih – Why would you think that now that Samhain is over I will not continue to bring attention to the Frosts and what they wrote? Why would you think that my commitment to drawing attention to the problem of silence concerning child molestation and pedophilia would fade? I am more committed than ever.

Shadowhawk – “Sick Fuck”? So you heard about the body cavities in the dummies. Yep, the Sacrifice of Caring had life size effigies of Gavin and Yvonne Frost in them. Each had a body cavity where each carried one half of the Good Witches Bible. I fisted and fished the first half out of Gavin. Aimee fished and fisted the second half out of Yvonne. We then read the offensive material (the book they shit out) and then returned it to whence it came (from up their asses).

Not sure what to do with the dummies now. I am thinking about taking them on tour the way the Big Boy goes on tour every now and then.

A.J. Drew

The Pagan Temple said...

Let me sum it up for you the best way it can be summed up-

AJ and Aimee Drew molested Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.

That's pretty damn inhumane if you ask me, it would have been more merciful to just burn them.

Archaeus said...

Pagan Temple,

Having read your "The Curse Of The Bubblegum Fairy" pretty much confirmed in my mind what kind of an individual you truly are. But instead of going back and forth arguing what everyone already knows about you I figured there would be no harm in sharing some of the content presently posted on your blog especially as you seem to have no problem breaking copyright laws by using images off my site without my permission to use against me!

Yes, yes I know you won't care and will just insult me more and find more ways to spread your sickness even further.

But just remember Pagan Temple, push your luck too far and you will have far more against you than your tiny little synthetic attention starved brain could ever comprehend.

But what have we here!

Jokes which you described on your own public blog as "sick and hilarious jokes, some of the sickest and funniest I have ever read in my life."

Sick yes, but hilarious?

So lets all read what the mighty Pagan Temple considers hilarious.

Q: What is the worst part about eating bald pussy?
A: Putting the diaper back on.

Q: What's the difference between a dead baby and a trampoline?
A: You don't wear boots when you jump on a trampoline.

Q: What is the difference between a mansion and 10 year old?
A: I have never been inside a mansion.

Q: What do you call the worthless flesh around a pussy?
A: A woman.

Q: What is the best part about having sex with a 12 year old in the shower?
: You can slick her hair back and pretend she is 8.

Q: What did the clown say to your dead baby?
A: The clown only fucked your dead baby. He didn't say much.

Q: What turns a fruit into a vegetable?
A: AIDS!

Q: What is better than having sex with a 10 year old Vietnamese boy?
A: Nothing!

Q: What do you get when you stab a baby with a knife?
A: An erection.

Q: How do you make a ten year old girl cry twice?
A: Wipe your bloody cock on her Teddy Bear.

Q: What's funnier than a dead baby?
A: A dead baby in a clown suit!

Q: What is black and blue and hates to have sex?
A: The 7 year old in my trunk.

Q: How many times does a baby spin in a microwave before it explodes?
A: I dunno. Always too busy masturbating to notice.

Q: What is the worst part about having sex with a 3 yr old?
A: Wiping the blood off your clown shoes.

I guess these jokes say everything you need to know about Pagan Temple.

Knowledge Is Power said...

The Pagan Temple said...
Let me sum it up for you the best way it can be summed up-

AJ and Aimee Drew molested Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.

That's pretty damn inhumane if you ask me, it would have been more merciful to just burn them.

October 28, 2007 8:55 PM

Well, it must be appropriate since Gavin and Yvonne wrote and stand behind molesting little girls and mutilating both boys and girls in the name of Wicca. Soooo, it's ok to do it to little kids but not to the authors who wrote that it's ok to do to kids?

fenix said...

I suppose in the realm of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate, just about everyone commenting on here has now stepped over the bounds of good taste. Congratulations. By bringing yourselves down the the same level of those you are supposed to be protecting the world from, you negate any good you might have done.

This isn't a school playground. We're adults, supposedly intelligent adults. I would recommend that if you have a problem, and it is a legal issue, please take it up with the appropriate authorities. Calling names and posting up disgusting acts against dolls is really childish. Surely we can behave rationally - who knows? Maybe, if instead of hurtling insults and garbage and acting like Gods-only-know-what, there could actually be a constructive dialogue that would be beneficial to everyone.

The Pagan Temple said...

Archeaus-

If you have a problem with me using your picture, I will take it off, no problem whatsoever. I never noticed a copyright notation on the image. As for the jokes, I got them from a teenage witch I met on a MySpace group. Darn kids these days, huh?

When I read them I said to myself, wow, I bet Archaeus, who comes to my site at least once every day, would really enjoy those.

Actually, I mean you no ill will. I want you to get help, which you sorely need. I mean this sincerely.

Truthfully, for example, I actually think your poetry is fairly good. Stop being so damn sensitive, Bubblegum Fairy.

The Pagan Temple said...

Knowledge Is Power-

I don't know what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have or have not done throughout their lives.

I do know what AJ Drew and Aimee have done, and induced others to do, in the course of what has been advertised as a magical ritual act.

I'm proud of AJ Drew actually, for he has finally had the guts to stand up and break the sound barrier of silence. I now know it is fine and dandy for me to go out and do any kind of magical ritual I damn well please.

There's a certain married chick here in my neighborhood I would dearly love to hop in the sack with, for just one example, so I think I'm going to follow AJ Drew's sterling example. I'm going to make an image of her and make love to it.

I'm going to put a lot of visualization and energy raising into this act, because hey-I know this is going to be a fine piece, who cares what her old man thinks, huh? Who cares what anybody thinks?

And if there is any blowback from this ritual, how bad can it be, huh? HeHeHeHe, what could possibly go wrong, I mean the worse that could happen is I could get really screwed. Kind of the point anyway, huh?

Hell, positive and negative magic is in the eye of the beholder anyway, huh?

Hell, I think I might just ritually murder someone here in a few days. Anybody got any advice on how I might go about that?

Surely there must be some way you can cast a murder spell against someone without having to worry about that nasty karma stuff, huh? You know what they say, there's ways around everything.

Shadowhawk said...

ARCHAEUS..buddy.. have you seen my response Video on Youtube Yet.. rather poignant id say.. What is it you Fear Bubblegum Man..Lol.. And Knowledge is Power your Just a weak pathetic follower.. No One has proven anything about the Frosts.. but Aj Drew and his cohorts have proven that they are Evil and truely demonic.. Archaeus Buddy.. im waiting for your Response to my video.. I wonder if your gonna cry.. We will see

wushih said...

Mr. Drew,

You did WHAT to the dummies? You "fisted" them? Your wife did this as well?

You are both mentally ill and should not have custody of your innocent children.

Rhiannon said...

Wow!
I'm gone for a week or so and all this.......

First;
PT, You gave away my secret! I was hoping ot have 7 finger just like my auntie had! Would make doing some things easier!

Gavin and Yvonne the Dancing Wiccans said
“Personally we think that Catholic efforts to reestablish authority in the years following the Black Death set the scene for most of the later burnings. During the plague the Church and its priests lost their authority because prayers and burning candles were so visibly ineffective.
Rhiannon, what's your take on that?”

I do not see the power of the Catholic Church being lost during that time. That religion was the only thing the people had to hold on to and during that time they held on tight! I feel that the power diminished when Henry VIII decided to change the way worship was done even though he never completely broke away for the catholic belief system.

Another thing to keep in mind is the Christians learned from example of burnings and torture for religious beliefs from the Pagans and Romans.


Second;
This to everyone;
Those jokes are not every the slight bit funny to me.
I would never repeat them. Not because they are sick but because they are sick towards children.
Children are the most innocent and the most important thing in life I feel.
I am against any kind of abuse towards children or adults but to speak or write so about children is just something I can NOT understand. It is very sad.

Third;
I did go to the IRWB. I sat in on the Sacrifice to Caring Ritual. If you could have heard some of those who were brave enough to tell their story of abuse as a child would have torn your heart out. How people can do such things....I just cannot imagine. I do know there are a lot of sick people.
Sticking your hand up a paper mache dummy doesn't even come close to the term of sick when you really think about those who stuck their hands up inside an innocent child!

I don't remember who it was who was talking about doing a killing rit but that comes under the religion of voodoo or revenge. IF you have a solid valid reason for doing such a rit there will be no fall out from it. I would have no problems do such if someone killed one of my children or grandchildren. To do such a rit without just cause there will be a lot of fall out. Of course it depends on if you are up to accepting that fall out from doing something unjustified.
BTW Karma from current life actions come from the Eastern beliefs not from old Pagan beliefs. Study Strega (NOT Grimassi's Strega, but true Strega) and you will understand better of which I speak.

Anyways I have laundry to do which right now is more interesting than some of the shit I’ve seen on Utube of late and I have read of late. (yeah I know that is a low blow but it is true as far as I am concern)
Come on people, grow up and stop acting like 10 year olds with my Dad can beat up your Dad shit. When are we going to pull together and promote the Pagan religions as a whole for the good of all? (yes that may be a dream I never see come to realization but…) When are we going to be willing to turn our backs on those who perform and or promote child abuse not only in writing but in actions. Before you attack me please think on the topic of you or one of your family being raped or molested and what you would do about it.

Ok I have real life shit to get to.

fenix said...

I invite folks to read my latest blog.

Lack of communication will be the destroyer. I will be willing to listen if others will listen as well. Not yelling, not accusing, not assuming.

fenix said...

Rhiannon, it just occurred to me - I'd like for you to understand that our disgust at the ritual that was performed in Ohio comes from the fact that we have only been told about the desecrations that happened. We know nothing of the rest of the ceremony. Honestly, I don't believe there's one person here that doesn't believe any ritual for healing isn't a good idea.

I've heard stories from survivors, too, and I know how heart-wrenching it can be. I'm sure that part of the ceremony was very moving.

E-Anderson said...

rhiannon wrote:

"I do not see the power of the Catholic Church being lost during that time. That religion was the only thing the people had to hold on to and during that time they held on tight! I feel that the power diminished when Henry VIII decided to change the way worship was done even though he never completely broke away for the catholic belief system."

I respectfully disagree and agree with the Frosts on this, but for a different reason. It wasn't just he Church that lost power because of the Black Death. Every organization lost power due to the decimation of the population. During the five years of the pandemic, from 30%-50% of the people in areas of the disease died, destroying infrastructure in all areas.

Problems developed as the population regrew and the Church tried to reestablish its authority. After having lived without such authority, people didn't want it any more. The actions of Henry VIII simply codified what people wanted. Remember, the Protestant Reformation began in 1517 while Henry set up laws that separated England from the Pope, and created the Anglican Church in 1534.

Rhianon wrote: "Another thing to keep in mind is the Christians learned from example of burnings and torture for religious beliefs from the Pagans and Romans."

The claim that Christians were burned and tortured "for religious beliefs" by the Pagans has been refuted. There were some killed, but the numbers were small and the crimes were criminal offenses and treason, not for their Religion. Rome was extremely tolerant of Religions. Judaism and Buddhism were being spread in the city of Rome.

Rhianon wrote: "I sat in on the Sacrifice to Caring Ritual."

Renaming (misnaming) an event--one of the popular techniques of the Bush administration (clean skies? No child left behind?)--does not change the essence of such an event.

Rhianon wrote: "If you could have heard some of those who were brave enough to tell their story of abuse as a child...Sticking your hand up a paper mache dummy doesn't even come close to the term of sick when you really think about those who stuck their hands up inside an innocent child!"

This is playing a horrible, sick game. You are saying it is okay to do something evil because others did something evil. Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

Further, having people recall their brutal abuse without giving them competent psychological care is no better than abusing them. How many of the people who, like Christians, made their confession of being abused, immediately received such care? 100%? 50%? None?

This was not about them. This was about Mr. Drew dragging people out so he could time them into his obsessions no matter how much damage it did to them. And you Rhianon, "sat in" on this abuse.

I know you're too involved being a groupie for Mr. Drew to understand it, but your participation in a rite that further abused these people will be your shame forever. You will be tattooed with a scarlet letter "A," but it won't stand for "adultery," it will stand for "abuser".

Rhianon wrote:
"Anyways I have laundry to do which right now is more interesting than some of the shit I’ve seen on Utube of late and I have read of late. (yeah I know that is a low blow but it is true as far as I am concern)"

Abusers never think they've done anything wrong and always have a justification for their abuse.

Rhianon wrote: When are we going to pull together and promote the Pagan religions as a whole for the good of all? "

Perhaps when groupies stop following the obsessions of people with mental illnesses.

Rhianon wrote: "When are we going to be willing to turn our backs on those who perform and or promote child abuse not only in writing but in actions."

You mean like the way you supported a rite that further abused people who suffered from abuse? How many of those people did you pay for to get competent psychological counseling? 10? 5? 1? 0?

Perhaps when people stop talking and start putting their actions where their words are, we'll have some result. Perhaps when people stop using abused people to support their obsessions we'll have such a result. Perhaps when people stop thinking that doing evil to combat evil (sort of like killing a doctor to end abortion) we will see that happen.

Rhianon wrote: "Before you attack me please think on the topic of you or one of your family being raped or molested and what you would do about it."

Ah! Appeal to the reptilian "act first, think later" mind rather than appealing to the higher mind aspects of considering what can be done to help the abused and come up with solutions to actually prevent further abuse. But you support someone who lives off of having someone to abuse himself.

Your shame and inaction for the spirit of Paganism and human evolution will hang around you like a bad stink forever.

ajdrew said...

Concerning my wife and I shoving what we think is a pedophilic instructional up the rear ends of its authors, Pagan Temple said:

“That's pretty damn inhumane”.

Inhumane? I think it was rather fraternity like. But inhumane? Now that is a very dramatic word. I don’t think I would use it to describe the levity portion of the presentation in question. I do think I would use it to describe the instructions in that book concerning what one should do to children.

Archaeus provided quotes from Pagan Temple’s blog. Thank you Archaeus. Although I knew Pagan Temple was willing to ride the rumor wagon and jump on the chance to attack people for health matters, I had no clue how truly uncaring s/he is. The joke about AIDS victims, pedophilic comments, and anti gay tone of his blog does well to frame the supporters of Gavin and Yvonne Frost.

Knowledge is Power – Right on, but not what was on our minds when we came up with it. We were going more for the idea that the Frost’s shat out the book, so we were returning it to whence it came.

Concerning Pagan Temple’s comments which seem to indicate that he now thinks rape is magickly ethical, I do not believe that one should use magick for unethical purposes. Lets take what society seems to think is the most unethical act a person could do; murder. I do not think committing murder is necessarily unethical. As an example, if someone were to molest my children I would not have a problem killing them. In fact, I think that given the opportunity it would be a crime for a parent not to take vengeance for such an action.

So then, I believe murder can be a positive act. Consider rapists. If you murder a rapist, you have prevented the rape of all future victims. If, given the opportunity, you do nothing. Well you have facilitated future rapes. Fortunately, murder itself is not the only option. When folk see something that is wrong, they can express themselves as instructed in ancient pagan text that something is wrong. They can phone the authorities. They can, well they can do exactly what I have been doing.

Fenix said: “…posting up disgusting acts against dolls is really childish.”

I think it is a very effective form of protest. In fact, effigies have been used for thousands of years in just such a way; teasing and taunting them. In fact, it was so very funny I think folk will be talking about it for years to come. Each time they do, they will spread awareness of what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote, what they encouraged, what they promoted. Each time people talk about it, they will see that someone stood up and expressed exactly how I think most folk feel after reading that book; fuck Gavin and Yvonne Frost up their ass with their own book.

Fenix said: “Maybe, if instead of hurtling insults and garbage and acting like Gods-only-know-what, there could actually be a constructive dialogue that would be beneficial to everyone.”

I tried for years, but the Frosts refused. I believe they refused because they felt the folk who object to their antics were powerless against them. Now they know better and the movement against them will continue to grow and grow without anyone having the ability to stop it, much like a snow ball rolling down a hill, gathering speed, gathering size, gathering force.

The pagan community is beginning to change. Tolerance for things which should not be tolerated is gradually grinding to a halt.

Shadowhawk said: “No One has proven anything about the Frosts”

You are 100% correct. The Frosts book speaks for itself. The book is its own evidence, right there in print. There is nothing for me to prove. Despite you constant attempts to dilute the issue, the issue is what they wrote and encouraged. I think it is sick, most people who read it think it is sick.

Wushih – Yep, we shoved their book up their asses as a form of protest. We returned the book they shat out back to whence it came. It was a hoot and a fantastic statement.

Fenix – Concerning other portions of the rite, the sort of it is that five survivors told their stories of child molestation, incest and rape. Then I read the Frost’s book detailing what I feel are instructions to do just about exactly what was done to these survivors. Then, to lift the mood and add a bit of levity we returned what I had read to where it came; up Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s asses.

The facts of the matter are; there are victims of child molestation, rape, and incest within the pagan community and then there is the Frosts, whose book seems to state that child molestation, rape, and incest are the very foundation of Wicca. That is going to stop. The pagan community will adopt a policy of zero tolerance for sexual crimes and especially sexual crimes against children. This means zero tolerance for people who write joyfully about such things.

The fad is over folk. What remain will be folk dedicated to family.

fenix said...

Just creepy, really.

fenix said...

From Mr. Drew:

"Fenix said: “Maybe, if instead of hurtling insults and garbage and acting like Gods-only-know-what, there could actually be a constructive dialogue that would be beneficial to everyone.”

I tried for years, but the Frosts refused. I believe they refused because they felt the folk who object to their antics were powerless against them."

Just curious as to the methods you used to contact the Frosts?

Knowledge Is Power said...

fenix said...
I suppose in the realm of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate, just about everyone commenting on here has now stepped over the bounds of good taste. Congratulations. By bringing yourselves down the the same level of those you are supposed to be protecting the world from, you negate any good you might have done.

You know what's inappropriate? The book The Good Witch's Bible and the material contained therein.
Gavin and Yvonne have had every opportunity to right this wrong, yet they stand behind what they wrote, claim that it was done by ancient people, so were the murders of the bog people, but that doesn't make it right but then, who really knows why the bog people were murdered, maybe they molested children? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY FOR THIS EXCEPT IN GY'S MIND. In light of all the information about how damaging it is to PEOPLE, I say PEOPLE because while it horrifically damages children, these children grow to adults and then carry this burden with them for as long as they live and many commit suicide because of it. They continue to stand behind what they wrote. They could simply chuck it for humanitarian reasons, but won't. Nice legacy Mr. and Mrs. Frost.

I've heard the excuse that they're just 'old hippies'. Well, so are my parents and my father and my relatives would have literally killed anyone that had done anything like that to my brother, myself or any of the children in our family. Like I've said, I was there and there was no such BULLSHIT during the hippie times except by perverts. Listen to hippie music, the words of that generation. There was hippie music in my home all the time as a child and you NEVER heard anything of the like.

I can just picture Simon and Garfunkle doing that, or how bout the Beatles? No? Gee, WONDER WHY?
Eric Clapton? Grace Slick? Jimi Hendrix? Janice Joplin? NOPE, not a one singin about molesting kids, man.

All of you have been faced with the evidence, THE BOOK ITSELF. They themselves state it. They also have information should someone become pregnant on how to avoid paying child support. So fuck the girl BUT take no adult responsibility for it? STERLING example for a RELIGION.

As for childish, look to yourselves Frost supporters, you are by far the worst shit slingers here. Although... Fenix, you haven't, but you are the only one who hasn't.

E-Anderson said...

knowledge is power wrote:

"You know what's inappropriate? The book The Good Witch's Bible and the material contained therein."

Why does KIP say this? Because concerning one section he write: "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY FOR THIS EXCEPT IN GY'S MIND."

Likewise, there is no evidence in history that the Frost's book has harmed anyone except in the damaged mind of Mr. Drew and his groupies such as KIP.

But I'm more than willing to see evidence that I'm wrong. KIP, since the book has been around for over 30 years, it should be no problem for you to produce a hundred people who have been abused as children directly as a result of the book. What are their names and email addresses?

How about 50 such "victims?" 25? 10? 5?

To quote KIP (with one alteration), "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY FOR THIS EXCEPT IN Mr. Drew's and his groupies' MINDs."

KIP accuses people of being "shit slingers." If that's true, then it's only because after years of throwing it yourself, you find yourself covered with it.

fenix said...

Well, as entertaining as it is to continue to drag up things that never happened and twist stuff to make it sound like people said things they didn't, I have work to do. As I said in my blog, I have better things to exert all my energy on. This will never be resolved as long as no one is willing to be reasonable without being vindictive.

The Frosts are my friends. They never touched me in any manner that anyone can deem inappropriate. Same with my folks.

Gotta go work on the show some more.

Shadowhawk said...

Ed i have posed that same question over and over.. The best Drew can produce is Wikipedia postings.. No one molested just wikipedia posts.. and Aj i dont dilute the issue Not when it comes to you lies motherfucker. KIP is just a groupie a follower nothing more . Personally EVERYONE that is a Drewbie is no more Pagan than my Mom is Christian.. You people are Pathetic.. And Archaeus i hear your talking shit about me on your Blog.. Why wont you unblock me and let me see what your sayin.. Are you just to much of a 2 faced pussy.. Yea thats it. People say we should drop this and play nice.. I say Fuck that.. Aj im going to ruin you.. Count on it

Knowledge Is Power said...

Why does KIP say this? Because concerning one section he write: "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY FOR THIS EXCEPT IN GY'S MIND."

Likewise, there is no evidence in history that the Frost's book has harmed anyone except in the damaged mind of Mr. Drew and his groupies such as KIP

Firstly, let me correct you, I'm a she not a he. Secondly, all the evidence that I need is in the book itself and the testimony by the Frost's themselves.

Knowledge Is Power said...

Shadowhawk said...
Ed i have posed that same question over and over.. The best Drew can produce is Wikipedia postings.. No one molested just wikipedia posts.. and Aj i dont dilute the issue Not when it comes to you lies motherfucker. KIP is just a groupie a follower nothing more . Personally EVERYONE that is a Drewbie is no more Pagan than my Mom is Christian.. You people are Pathetic.. And Archaeus i hear your talking shit about me on your Blog.. Why wont you unblock me and let me see what your sayin.. Are you just to much of a 2 faced pussy.. Yea thats it. People say we should drop this and play nice.. I say Fuck that.. Aj im going to ruin you.. Count on it

Shadowhawk, you seem like such an intelligent guy, such a shame to be so angry. I want to tell you a story.

Years ago, my mother used to go to a Dry Cleaner named Izzy. My mother loved to talk to Izzy, I used to fidget a lot and not listen, but daydream while they chatted. He had a tatoo on his arm, it was all numbers. One day, I noticed this and asked Izzy, "what is that tatoo"? My mother hushed me up, I knew she was embarassed by my question, but I didn't understand why. When we got home, my mother sat me down and told me the story of Izzy. Izzy was a survivor of the Holocaust, he lost his family to that evil. My mother told me what the Holocaust was and some of what happened. I guess she talked it over with my father and they decided to teach their children about it. We sat at supper and in the living room in the evenings and my mother got books from the library to teach us. As a child, it was incomprehensible as to why someone would or could do that to anyone, I understand it much better now, as an adult.

Many years later, as an adult, I was standing in line at a convenience store. In that line behind me, I saw a woman with a similar tatoo. I know she saw me look at it, this survivor, I stepped back, I said to her, "Please, go ahead of me". She should be first, I could wait, why should she have to? I believe she earned that right and that very, very small gift from me. No, I didn't do the evil to her, but she's a fellow human being and 'there go I but for the Grace of God" It was really a gift to me, because I saw the look on her face, she was pleased. This happened 20 years ago or so and I remember it clearly to this day and will till the day I die, I believe.

You know, we have no right to abuse people who've lived through such horrors. I would give someone like that more leeway in any conversation. I wouldn't put up with something ridiculous, but when a survivor speaks, I listen, I listen carefully, I give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. If a survivor tells me of the horrors that they lived through, why would I want to rub salt into that wound? That would make me as evil as the perpetrators. Those of us who've never suffered things like that should be grateful that fate has blessed us.

Just thought I'd share a little intellectual conversation with you Shadowhawk.

fenix said...

By the same token, if a person has not committed a crime, should we accuse them of it anyway?

Shadowhawk said...

Yea What the Fuck ever happened to Innocent til Proven guilty.. but i guess this is Germany HEIL HITLER SIEG HEIL AJ DREW.. Lord and High Executioner

Shadowhawk said...

Just read your Blog Aj so Paperweight on a treelimb.. Who the Fuck do you really think you are.. Defrosters are uniting.. Yea right.. Your a hack pathetic fucking LOSER.. always will be.. You say you have FACTS AND TRUTH on your side.. You have a book and thats ALL YOU GOT.. Like i say .. Im not gonna stop till i see your name wink out of existence.. You have a crusade.. NOW i have mine

Rhiannon said...

anderson
You do a fine twisting of words to make you look like a hero. You are not in any meaning of the word.
What have YOU done to help stop abuse?
Paid money? Standup and offer help? Nothing?

Anyone who would stand by and condone a child being abuse is not even worth the scum of the earth. Anyone who would make excuses for abuse is worth nothing.

You sir are nothing. You only take words and twist then to make you look good. The only thing is you have made the mistake of pointing out that nothing was done to help the abused. Well sir again you are wrong.
Also there were charities at the Ball that was there to help make known about abuse and how to stop it.
Again you assume and you are wrong.
You sir are nothing because YOU condone abuse by placing the blame on others who have taken a stand against it.
Again you assume to know me, but you are once again wrong because I have always stood against abuse.
I have always said that if any man should hurt my children I would hunt them down myself and give back 10 fold what they did.

You sir have given a perfect example of the type of person I would never want around my family because of following those who condone and stand by abuse then try to make excuses for those abusers.
There is no excuse for those who condone or perform abuse.
You anderson are nothing.

I will gladly take the stink of standing against abuse and those who promote it.

Rhiannon said...

shadowhawk said
"People say we should drop this and play nice.. I say Fuck that.."

I agree 100%.
There should be no nicey nice when dealing with those who promote and condone abuse especially to children. To rip away their trust and innocence is horrible. I still say that if you think it is fine to write such filth, to condone those who perform such filth, to excuse such filth, then you who do need to be brought down. No second chances should be given to those who abuse. They need to be taken out of society.
Vengeful? Absolutely! There is no excuse for such to happen. NONE!

Rhiannon said...

shadowhawk said
" You have a crusade.. NOW i have mine"

So do I!
Anyone who is so sick to harm a child needs to be removed from society. Anyone who is so sick to stand by those who promote or perform abuse need to be removed from placing such blight on society.

How many years in jail does a child molester get? Usually not more than 5 and can get out on good behavior. How long does that child have to live with what was done to them? Their whole life.

Yes I will gladly take the filthy stink that may come to me by standing up and being counted as one against abuse unlike those who stand by and condone such actions. At least I can look myself in the mirror every day and I can hold my head high knowing I take such a stand. Yes wash with that stink! Unlike the black plague that comes from those who condone or look the other way about abuse.

Shadowhawk said...

You Rhiannon are THE EVUL SCUM that must be rooted out.. you and Drew those who make BASELESS accusations against people you do not know.. You are the SCUM of the Pagan movement Not Anderson Not Me not anyone.. You arent pagan YOU ARE NAZI.. SEIG HEIL AJ DREW LORD AND HIGH EXECUTIONER

Knowledge Is Power said...

Shadowhawk said...
You Rhiannon are THE EVUL SCUM that must be rooted out.. you and Drew those who make BASELESS accusations against people you do not know.. You are the SCUM of the Pagan movement Not Anderson Not Me not anyone.. You arent pagan YOU ARE NAZI.. SEIG HEIL AJ DREW LORD AND HIGH EXECUTIONER

Shadowhawk,
I'd like to ask you something if you don't mind...

Have you read the intructional in the Frost's book?

What do you think of it?

Do you think it would be alright to do what they've written about?

Do you have any children?

If so, would you let what's in the book be done to your kids?

Would you do it yourself?

If so, why?

If not, why?

I'm just curious as to what your answer to these questions are.

fenix said...

--Rhiannon said...
shadowhawk said
" You have a crusade.. NOW i have mine"

So do I!
Anyone who is so sick to harm a child needs to be removed from society. Anyone who is so sick to stand by those who promote or perform abuse need to be removed from placing such blight on society.--

I don't think anyone will argue with you on this. My exception comes from accusing people without proof, even after you've been given proof to the opposite.

Take your concerns to an attorney.

The Pagan Temple said...

Aj Drew said-

The fad is over folk. What remain will be folk dedicated to family.

Well, I'm afraid not. Matter of fact, I know not. What will remain is a diverse group of pagans and paths. Some might be dedicated to "family", like yourself. Some might be more dedicated to freedom and the rights of the individual, such as myself.

Some might be dedicated to environmental causes, hopefully without being Chicken Littles about it, like Gavin's buddy Isaac, talking about casting spells to make Al Gore run for President.

Some might be dedicated to social justice in a number of diverse areas.

The pagan community as a whole will never be an agenda driven group all dedicated to "family", "environmentalism", "freedom", "justice", or any one thing in unison.

And there is never going to be any one individual or group of them that speaks for all pagans on any matter.

That includes you, AJ Drew.

FIZZZZLLLLE-The sound of the dud firecracker that was the RWB-not quite the blast of dynamite reverberating throughout the pagan community AJ Drew thought it would be.

Rhiannon said...

Shadowhawk, You and I have tangoed before. You remember what happened then don't you?
I won't call names or make threats as you do.

Rhiannon said...

Fenix
Proof? I take it you are talking about the Frosts. I am not.

My mission is to stop abuse. Period.

We were not put here on Earth to be abused. It must stop now! Those who condone abuse, those who perform abuse, and those who turn their heads away when they know abuse is happening are the real problems of society.

I pray to all the Gods that anyone who condones, performs, or looks away and does nothing reap what they deserve. I feel taking their lives is too humane but should know the torture for years that they have performed and forced on others.

Shadowhawk said...

We Tangoed and you did WHAT not a fucking Thing.. You found out my name NOTHING MORE.. so now what SCUM

fenix said...

If your mission is to stop abuse, then pursue the abusers. If you think people are too weak-minded to think for themselves and will be persuaded by a book, then take it to a court of law.

Shadowhawk said...

FENIX i have challenged Drew himself to do just that.. if he has all this evidence and is sooo certain that The Witches Bible promotes pedophillia to GET OFF HIS ASS and pursue it in the court .. But ya know he skirted that issue.. Seems he doesnt have the BALLS to do so.. He is content to post blogs , to call sherriffs departments to harass PPD coordinators, and all these other little tricks.. he claims hes DOIN IT FOR THE KIDS.. yet he DOES NOTHING where it really counts.. I think personally hes AFRAID to take it to the LEGAL REALM.. the truest sign of a coward..JUST LIKE HITLER.. a charismatic leader who in the end committed SUICIDE in his bunker.

Shadowhawk said...

This post is for Rhiannon Aj KIP and anybody else who are part of the Drew campaign.. Check out my blog.. http://paganperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-aj-drew-pagan-hitler.html

SEIG HEIL

E-Anderson said...

Shadowhawk: what's important to understand is that Mr. Drew is functioning like he is running a Christian crusade. He doesn't need evidence or proof, just his feelings. He's right, evidence is wrong. He's like the 13th-century Christians who slaughtered other Christians (so-called heretics) saying, "Kill them all. Let God sort out his own." In this case, however, Mr. Drew is perfectly willing to destroy Paganism to fit his mental illness-inspired fantasies. It's a sign of his obsession.

By the way, the more people with this disease are asked to show evidence to support their claims, and the more they can't produce any evidence, the stronger they will hold onto their beliefs. This, of course, is just the opposite of what logic and reason demand. If a person has logic and reason, when shown there is nothing to support their claims, it is reasonable for them to either change or completely abandon their claims. For example, if a person writes, "there is an energy called X," but nobody can produce any evidence of this energy, the person would change the definition of the energy or abandon the claim. But in the case of a mentally ill, obsessive personality, the behavior apes that of a child acting out, stamping his foot and going "it's real, it's real, it's real!"

Asking for evidence is not for Mr. Drew. The only thing that will get Mr. Drew to change is psychotherapy or a change of his obsession to something else. Personally I hope he will get into psychotherapy or, if he is in therapy, find a new therapist who can help him deal with his issues.

No, the purpose of pointing out that this "emperor" of a tiny community has no clothes. It's to get other reasonable people to see that Mr. Drew makes no sense and is willing to destroy all of the Pagan community to support his obsessions.

As I have stated repeatedly, there are people here, and on Mr. Drew's website, who act like his groupies. For example, KIP. When challenged to support his claim and produce evidence that anyone has ever been abused as a direct result of the Frost's book, she (sorry for the misidentification), she cannot. So when challenged, she fights back but can produce no evidence.

There is an interesting book entitled When Prophecy Fails by Festinger, Riecken and Schachter. In it they show that when a person has followers, and that person makes claims that are proven to be untrue, they support him even more strongly. I know this sounds bizarre, but the reason is obvious. They have put a great deal of "value" (belief, time, energy, support, etc.) into what is presented by the leader. To accept that the leader has failed makes all that value wasted and most people won't allow their psychological investment to be wasted. Thus, they support and believe what is unbelievable and unsupportable.

Note that she compares the Frost's with the Nazis. Now first, it's important to point out that the Nazis were directly responsible for the murders of 12 million people (Jews, Gypsies, occultists, gays, and others) and about 40 million war-related deaths. KIP can't produce one person even harmed directly as a result of the Frost's book.

And secondly, as a result of this invocation of the Nazis, I hereby declare that Godwin's Law is invoked and KIP loses. :)

Note, too, the following:
Rhianon makes a claim. I ask her what she's actually done. Rather than respond, she attempts to turn it around and ask what I've done. Note, she absolutely refuses to say that she has done anything practical. My guess is that she has not.

However, in answer to her question, my wife and I have, over the years, taken in over a dozen women and children who have been abused. We have supported them for months while they received therapy and until the mothers could get re-established in safe situations with jobs and a support system. We are still in contact with all of them and not one has ever paid us a cent--nor have we requested it (although we have received some wonderful personal gifts of thanks in the form of poems, painting, arts-and-crafts, etc.). I have also volunteered and spent countless hours providing help to men, women, and children who have been abused and needed therapy.

Rhianon is correct when she writes, "Anyone who would stand by and condone a child being abuse is not even worth the scum of the earth. Anyone who would make excuses for abuse is worth nothing." I would simply add to the statement that anyone who makes false claims without any evidence to support them of abuse--thus ruining lives and families--is inhumane, inhuman, and definitely unamerican. Unfortunately, she has so much vested in her feelings, emotions, and being a groupie to Mr. Drew that she falls into that category. She doesn't care that there's no evidence to support the claim that the Frost's book has been directly responsible for any abuse. Mr. Drew has an excuse for believing this way--his mental illness. Rhianon does not.

She claims she is "standing against abuse." In reality, she is patting herself on the back for doing nothing. She has not helped a soul other than her own needs.

Rhianon, instead of whining about a book that for over 30 years has done no harm, get off your butt and volunteer in a woman's clinic. Volunteer in a home for abused children. DO something instead of whining.

Finally, Shadowhawk, I have to be fair. You've now made the Hitler connection, invoking Godwin's law.

Game over.

Knowledge Is Power said...

Note that she compares the Frost's with the Nazis. Now first, it's important to point out that the Nazis were directly responsible for the murders of 12 million people (Jews, Gypsies, occultists, gays, and others) and about 40 million war-related deaths. KIP can't produce one person even harmed directly as a result of the Frost's book.

And secondly, as a result of this invocation of the Nazis, I hereby declare that Godwin's Law is invoked and KIP loses. :)

You idiot, I wasn't comparing the Frost's to Nazis. roflmao...I was telling shadowhawk a story about respecting people who've been abused.
Can you now fit the round hole into the ROUND peg?

Knowledge Is Power said...

By the way, the more people with this disease are asked to show evidence to support their claims, and the more they can't produce any evidence, the stronger they will hold onto their beliefs.

Bet if it was up your ass you'd find it.

Rhiannon said...

anderson
"Rhianon, instead of whining about a book that for over 30 years has done no harm, get off your butt and volunteer in a woman's clinic. Volunteer in a home for abused children. DO something instead of whining."

First I am not whining about a book. I am taking a stand against abuse. Maybe if you actually read my posts instead of thinking you know so much you would have gotten that.

How do you know what I have done and am doing in my personal life? You don't so once again you assume to know what you do not.

I have been a teacher, a counselor and much more. I have gone to a prison to help counsel about being a Pagan. There is so much I could list that I have done it would take up pages.
No I am not patting myself on the back for anything, I don’t need to voice what I have done or am doing to feel good. I don't need to brag as it seems you need to do. It is not my way.
Once again anderson you THINK you know me, but you do not at all. You once again assume which in turns make you look like an idiot, because you don't know. Maybe if you were to think first before inserting your foot you could make a viable statement.

Game over???? Good then go do something worth while for the community instead of making assumptions about someone you know nothing about and trying to make yourself feel worthwhile.
When it comes to the Frosts I am not too worried about them personally. It is the over all picture I am interested in. You know I am right in what I say about abuse. Those who condone, perform, or look the other way while it happens should be removed from society altogether.

Rhiannon said...

Shadowhawk
You gave me a challenge that I couldn't find you. I did
I also found your police record and more. You don't want to go there do you?

Now go play your video Utube games all you want. I am not interested in them except to use them to be put to sleep.

But go have fun and pretend you really care or whatever.
Ho Hum

Rhiannon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Knowledge Is Power said...

Rhiannon said...
Shadowhawk
You gave me a challenge that I couldn't find you. I did
I also found your police record and more. You don't want to go there do you?

Hey Rhiannon, can you post that without getting into trouble???
lol can you pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaase huh, can you?

Shadowhawk said...

Rhiannon .. like i say all you have is my name.. You say i have a police record.. Well post it then there Lady..Put your SCUMMY mouth where your money is.. Keep on lying about me.. I Dare you.. I have nothing to fear from you.. so having said that..POST IT

E-Anderson said...

Rhianon, talking is not taking a stand. Standing requires moving into a position and, well, standing. Sitting on your butt and writing on a computer is simply being an agent provocateur. Go, do something as I am. If you want to stop abuse, work to improve education, get laws passed to protect the innocent.

But you're doing nothing. That's not a stand. That's just assuaging your own egotism. "Oh look! I can pick on a book that for over thirty years hasn't resulted in the harm of any person in the world! Aren't I special?"
LOL!

KIP. You brought up the Nazi's as a comparison. Try actually finding out what Godwin's Law is.

You're still a loser.

No surprise.

Knowledge Is Power said...

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.


Knowledge Is Power said...
Note that she compares the Frost's with the Nazis. Now first, it's important to point out that the Nazis were directly responsible for the murders of 12 million people (Jews, Gypsies, occultists, gays, and others) and about 40 million war-related deaths. KIP can't produce one person even harmed directly as a result of the Frost's book.

And secondly, as a result of this invocation of the Nazis, I hereby declare that Godwin's Law is invoked and KIP loses. :)

You idiot, I wasn't comparing the Frost's to Nazis. roflmao...I was telling shadowhawk a story about respecting people who've been abused.
Can you now fit the round hole into the ROUND peg?

October 30, 2007 1:01 PM
ROFLMAO You're STILL an Idiot lololol
I didn't compare anybody to Nazi's, YOU IDIOTS DID!!! lolol
so now you're trying to make YOUR idocy MY fault?
omg, I'm laughing so hard I'm gonna blow milk out of shadowhawks cow's nose
bwaaaaaaaaaahhaaaaaaaaaahahaaaaaaa

Shadowhawk said...

KIP is a whore for her master AJ DREW

Rhiannon said...

No I won't post that type of personal info out there since it is only for those who know how to get it. The other info I posted was what he had posted on many other public sites and as such was for public consumption. No law against that!

Shadowhawk all you can do is make threats and call names like you have done your whole life. Calling women whores and cunts then making life threats. Yep that is a big man. No wonder you can't keep a partner. Also that is a childish game of grade schoolers. If you ever decide to just act like an adult and want to have a real conversation please let us all know. Then we may take what you say seriously.
Until then you are only a sewer ditch with the left overs of others draining out your mouth.

Rhiannon said...

E-Anderson said...
"Rhianon, talking is not taking a stand. Standing requires moving into a position and, well, standing. Sitting on your butt and writing on a computer is simply being an agent provocateur. Go, do something as I am. If you want to stop abuse, work to improve education, get laws passed to protect the innocent.

But you're doing nothing. That's not a stand. That's just assuaging your own egotism. "Oh look! I can pick on a book that for over thirty years hasn't resulted in the harm of any person in the world! Aren't I special?"LOL!"

anderson
What part of my posts didn't you understand???
Just goes to show you are an idiot or can't read english.

I repeat
Rhiannon said...
anderson
"Rhianon, instead of whining about a book that for over 30 years has done no harm, get off your butt and volunteer in a woman's clinic. Volunteer in a home for abused children. DO something instead of whining."

First I am not whining about a book. I am taking a stand against abuse. Maybe if you actually read my posts instead of thinking you know so much you would have gotten that.

How do you know what I have done and am doing in my personal life? You don't so once again you assume to know what you do not.

I have been a teacher, a counselor and much more. I have gone to a prison to help counsel about being a Pagan. There is so much I could list that I have done it would take up pages.
No I am not patting myself on the back for anything, I don’t need to voice what I have done or am doing to feel good. I don't need to brag as it seems you need to do. It is not my way.
Once again anderson you THINK you know me, but you do not at all. You once again assume which in turns make you look like an idiot, because you don't know. Maybe if you were to think first before inserting your foot you could make a viable statement.

Game over???? Good then go do something worth while for the community instead of making assumptions about someone you know nothing about and trying to make yourself feel worthwhile.
When it comes to the Frosts I am not too worried about them personally. It is the over all picture I am interested in. You know I am right in what I say about abuse. Those who condone, perform, or look the other way while it happens should be removed from society altogether.

Now go stick your other foot in your mouth.

Shadowhawk said...

I KNEW IT.. you say I HAVE THIS INFO .. yet you say its only for those who know how to get it.. So that tells me that possibly you illegally aquired my info..OR GASP you DONT HAVE SHIT.. QUIT LYING RHIANNON your nose is growing. AND WHEN YOU STOP BEING SCUM ..ill adress you as a female human..

Rhiannon said...

shadowhawk
I so enjoy your posts. You do make me laugh!
Thank you so much for the humor.

I told you before I have friends and relations who work for the government.
:)

ajdrew said...

Yep, it all degenerates into Nazis at some point. Of course before that, it degenerated to Communists.

Here is the thing, does anyone who has read the thing not think that the book in question contains pedophilic instructions? Yes, in the year 2000 edition (28 years after initial publication) there was added a disclaimer warning about fathers being sued for giving their children a bath. But that is not what I am asking. I am asking if there is anyone here who has read the thing and does not believe the instructions are pedophilic?

Shadowhawk, have you read the book? Does it not describe sexual conduct with children?

I doubt anyone involved in this discussion can answer truthfully that it does not.

So the next question is should the pagan community support people who have written such a thing and continue to sell it? Not if the are good people or not. Just, should we as a community support people who have written such a thing?

fenix - email and regular mail. I started prior to the publication of Wicca for Couples. I had hoped to convince them to stop selling the thing. Later, I stated writting distributors and wholesalers to illustrate the books contents.

Very little worked to draw attention to the problem until this campaign, which is working wonderfuly. At this point, I am kind of sitting back and watching the snowball roll.

Folk are starting to realize exactly what they wrote, what they continue to stand behind, and what they have not apologized for all these many years.

Mr-E-Anderson said...

Rhiannon, I see you ran back to Mr. Drew's website and immediately blogged repeating your whine to a group that is likely to agree with whatever Mr. Drew...er you... think rather than thinking for themselves.

But that changes nothing.

No, Rhiannon, you are NOT standing up to abuse. No matter how many times you claim it the FACT is that you're just whining about a book that has never hurt anyone.

Go ahead. Produce a couple of victims who have been abused as a direct result of the book over the past 30+ years and I'll go out of my way to apologize and post your praises wherever I can.

But the fact is, you and Mr. Drew, after all these years, still haven't produce even one such person.

Go back to Mr. Drew's website and whine there some more. Here, you're going to find people who want something like reason, logic, and E V I D E N C E of harm.

Oops. No evidence of harm. No case. No nada. Case dismisses. Game over. You lose.

Who are you going to attack without any evidence next? Dumbledore? OMG, He's gay! It's in the book. The author says so. She's trying to force boys to become gay! So what if no boy has ever become gay as a result of reading thousands of pages. You'll still attack and attack and attack.

And whine.

And not stand up to real abuse anywhere.

Knowledge Is Power said...

Evidence:

Sunday, August 19, 2007
Frost and Sex - Intacta
Today let us address the most hot-button of the rites of passage; that is to do with intacta. In many societies, especially in Pakistan, in parts of India, and in northern Italy, girls are severely restricted even in their play activities. Pakistani girls, for instance, are forbidden to ride a horse -- except sidesaddle. In these societies the future mother-in-law examines the prospective bride to make sure she is intact. In the northern Italian and Milanese tradition, to this day the humen is broken by the future mother-in-law on the day before the wedding, and a bloody handkerchief has to be presented to the groom. The source of this archaic custom is obvious. It comes from the male-dominator regime that swept away the older female or partnership mindset. It seems to us that the practice is the natural product of a mindset that can imagine such things as today's failed tax-supported multi-million-dollar "just say no" program.
We Frosts have been criticized almost non-stop for our suggestion that a gynecologist should break the hymen surgically -- if indeed it has not already been broken by the introduction of such things as a tampon. How many of you ladies reading this actually had a miserable first sexual experience because it was painful, it was bloody, and it was propagandized beyond belief? Do you really want your daughters to go through that same ordeal? In her meticulously researched (although unfortunately not footnoted, being fiction) "Clan of the Cave Bear" Jean Auel graphically describes the shaman breaking the hymen. Remember the shaman was the physician/healer of the group. In fact the ancient shamans were often women skilled in herbs, in interpretation of dreams, and in all the fields where women's sympathy and intuition come to the fore.
European museums house thousands upon thousand of bones called batons de commandment. On such bones the viewer can see iny little scratches, tiny sigils. Any woman looking at them can see that they represent moon times and then a record of sexual activity until the next moon time. It is hypothesized that these were the very bones the shamans employed to break the hymen during the puberty rites of the various European tribes. These records constitute some of the earliest writing known, presumably done by and for women. Don't take our word for this. Find an objective discussion in Alexander Marshack's "Roots of Civilization"; it is probably the best source.
In considering these, what we might call, intacta rites of passage, let us not forget the boys. It may not be realized in a society that has gone hog-wild for circumcision, in the unmutilated male equipment a membrane connects the tip of the penis to the lower foreskin, and that this membrane is broken at first intercourse. We would recommend the snipping of this membrane too by a trained physician -- and for this outrageous idea we probably will get even more criticism.
The whole subject of intacta is out there just now in a very negative polarizing way. If you want to learn about polarization, try reading Sam Keen's "Faces of the Enemy" or Ed Hubbard's articles on media wars. We are told the latter are now combined into a "Witch Wars Defense Manual".
As rational adults, can we or can we not convert that negativity into some positive actions?
To repeat what we said last time: Why don't we set a precedent and come to an agreement as to what we should do for our children? Surely in the pagan/Wiccan community we can find psychologists, gynecologists, lawyers, and whatever else may be appropriate who can get together and draft some acceptable guidelines.
Blessed be.

Posted by GavinandYvonne at 2:15 PM

Knowledge Is Power said...

Who are you going to attack without any evidence next? Dumbledore? OMG, He's gay! It's in the book. The author says so. She's trying to force boys to become gay! So what if no boy has ever become gay as a result of reading thousands of pages. You'll still attack and attack and attack.

And whine.

And not stand up to real abuse anywhere.

October 31, 2007 1:29 AM

Is that the best you can do? You're now accusing anyone who opposes the Frost's to be hateful towards homosexuals? Who cares if Dumbledore is gay, unless of course he's molesting the boys in the school and then, well, sure we'd have a problem with it. How long do you think the Potter books would've lasted if that was what the story was, someone molesting kids? Parents of all walks of life, of all religions would have shunned and been outraged by such a book. The Potter books contain no such reference, hence, their popularity. There's evil in the book and lo and behold, you have a kind of real life situation,in facing, naming and takin on evil. Those who stick their heads in the sand, those who do nothing, those who fiercely protect the children and those who join with the evil.
Gee, who won that last fight? I do believe it was the good who won against the evil.

fenix said...

Well, you guys all enjoy your little hate-fest. The article by G & Y you posted up really doesn't prove anything - hypothesis and supposition does not make fact. I've got kids to take trick-or-treating and stuff to research.

The Frosts don't do email so good, and if you send something to the Church and School and it's inflammatory from the get-go, Jo won't answer it, either.

Happy Halloween, ladies!

Shadowhawk said...

Rhiannon youlve said that before.. Someone in government got my info for you.. Yet when i the person you claim to have the info about you skirt the issue of posting it. You know what i think i think your afraid that if you post it and your wrong you might get sued.. Poor crippled Rhiannon, hows the Fibro, cant type much huh, cant post your lies.. Your Just as bad as Drew

fenix said...

Dude, I have fibro. That's not nice.

Carol Maltby said...

You must not be familiar with the Frost's website.

They have been stating that Jo (who they say is their webmaster) does not answer email at all, for about a year and a half now.

Shadowhawk said...

Sorry Fenix.. But war is hell.. Its not NICE.. that Rhiannon threatens to post Info about me which she OBVIOUSLY doesnt have on me.Then back pedals and says Oh well im not going to because im superior and will use this as the proverbial sword of damacles hanging over your head.. I will post NICE when i see its warranted.. Responses to Rhiannon do NOT warrant nice

Mr-E-Anderson said...

KIP claims to have produced "proof," but has produced nothing. KIP has produced not one person who has been abused as a direct result of the Frost's book.

Remember, that book has been around for over 30 years. Where are the victims? There aren't any. Produce them and I'll not only apologize but I'd be first in line to denounce the Frosts for this.

Then, KIP shows a total lack of logic by assuming I claimed that if a person attacks the Frosts they are "hateful toward homosexuals."

Readers, this is typical of people who are so incredibly focused--in this case groupies based around whatever Mr. Drew is currently attacking--that everything they see comes through those glasses.

This is NOT about the Frosts. It has never been about the Frosts. The Frosts are the victims of Mr. Drew and his mental illness of obsession with them.

This is NOT about child abuse. There is absolutely NO evidence in over 30 years of there being any such abuse as a direct result of the Frost's book. This has nothing to do with standing up to abuse. Nothing at all.

This IS all about Mr. Drew's illness and his refusal to do anything about it. It IS all about his obsessions which have led him to attack the Frosts. It IS all about his feelings of inferiority because although he has cranked out books he is still considered a minor player among Pagan personalities.

This is also all about his groupies. Just as the Bush administration groupies will twist facts and ignore information to support their leader, so, too, do people such as KIP and Rhiannon ignore facts to support Mr. Drew's obsessions.

The groupies for the leaders of the Christian right get quite upset because they see Teletubbies supposedly promoting homosexuality. They already hate the Potter books for "promoting" Witchcraft and occultism, so they're certainly going to attack the books for "promoting" homosexuality, too.

The point is that neither the Teletubbies nor the Potter books are going to make anyone gay. But obsessive people and their groupies will attack them for supposedly doing so.

Likewise, Mr. Drew and his groupies such as yourself attack the Frosts' book with no evidence that it has done any harm to anyone.

Don't you get it? You, Rhiannon, Mr. Drew and his other groupies are not in any way different in this matter than Christian extremists and their groupies. Mr. Drew is your Pat Robertson and you, instead of raising your hands and shouting "Praise be to Jee-zus," raise your hands and shout "Curses be to the Frosts." But this has nothing to do with either Jesus or the Frosts. It's about Robertson, Mr. Drew, and you.

As I have posted several times, if people want to LEGITIMATELY criticize the Frosts, more power to them. The fact that nobody has followed the instructions in the Frost's book even though it has been around for over 30 years shows, if anything, that they are failures, not abusers. It also shows that real Pagans--unlike Mr. Drew who is ill and yourself as merely a groupie--have the skill to discern what they think is good and what is not.

Child abuse exists. No doubt about it. But your flopping around on the pier like a fish out of water whining "The Frosts! The Frosts!" isn't going to stop one act of abuse. It isn't going to help one abused child. It isn't going to help an adult who doesn't know how to deal with a child not abuse that child. It's not going to educate. It's not going to provide medical or psychological care.

In fact, if anything it's going to make abuse more likely. During the 1980s, many law enforcement officials were looking for Satanic child abusers in what is today known as the "Satanic Panic." That took valuable resources AWAY from investigating real abuse and literally ignoring it. In fact, one FBI agent wrote that some people were more interested in rooting out heresy than stopping abuse.

If you want to stop abuse, go out and DO SOMETHING instead of whining about the non-existent Frost problem.

How many abused children have you, personally, taken into your home and supported for months or years?

Knowledge Is Power said...

Mr-E-Anderson said...
KIP claims to have produced "proof," but has produced nothing. KIP has produced not one person who has been abused as a direct result of the Frost's book.

How is it that you can blather on endlessly without saying a godamn thing?
Fecking moron, I'M traumatized by reading the negative, abusive filth that came out of the Frosts, you asshole, so there's your one victim, now get on your knees and lick the boots of the man you call my leader, you big wet fart out of a donkey's ass.
Yeah, I"m dumbing down to your level you tiny dicked fucking jerk.

Shadowhawk said...

At first i thought KIP was a driveling basketcase.. now I KNOW shes a Basketcase.. Your little posts just show you and Drew for what you really are.. Escapees from the fucking nut ward

The Pagan Temple said...

Mr. E- Anderson-

"Remember, that book has been around for over 30 years. Where are the victims? There aren't any. Produce them and I'll not only apologize but I'd be first in line to denounce the Frosts for this"

I wouldn't, for the simple fact that those same people would still be molesting their kids-or somebody else's kids-if they had not read the book by the Frosts.

You're right, though, in that all this folderol isn't going to do one thing for abuse victims. All it is doing is giving AJ Drew a soapbox to rant on, to stand and play to the crowds, like the carny hack that he is.

Me, I'm not interested. I just recognize a hack when I see one. And when I see a grown man sitting in what is supposed to be a spiritual event, with life-sized effigies of two elderly people, molesting them, while his goons gather around and take part like grinning idiots, and like brownshirt nazis going out to engage in Krystalnacht, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Anybody that would follow a clown like that doesn't warrant a civilized response.

Mr-E-Anderson said...

KIP wrote: "I'M traumatized by reading the negative, abusive filth that came out of the Frosts, you asshole..."

[irony mode]
I'm terribly sorry to hear that, KIP. So I have some questions for you:
1) Which one of the Frosts held you down and forced you to read the book? Was it both of them?
2) If it wasn't the Frosts who forced you to read the book, who was it?
3) You say you were traumatized. What are the exact symptoms of this traumatization? If it has cost you time or money for professional care you can take the people who forced you to read the book to court and sue for damages.

So who, exactly, forced you to read this book that cause this trauma? In fact, who first let you know about this book? Was it Mr. Drew? You should take him to court and sue him for the trauma you've experienced. How did he force you to read it? Did he threaten your family? Tie you down? Starve you? Abuse you?
[/irony mode]

--sigh--

It's really a shame when people are so ego-tied to something that they have to keep coming up with bizarre excuses and rationalizations to defend their irrational beliefs. You'll often see this behavior exhibited by racists, anti-semites, people who hate those of the opposite political leaning, homophobes, misogynists, etc. While not assuming that KIP is any of those, it's easy to see how KIP will keep making up bizarre rationalizations in an attempt to support the unsupportable.

Here, KIP has claimed to be traumatized be reading a book. Since the attack on the Frosts has been that they are encouraging child abuse, either KIP is admitting to being a child or is now adding a new attack on the Frosts.

My guess is that it is the latter. This is typical of those who act without thinking. When you logically show that they have nothing to prove their point, they come up with another argument. They will continue to do this forever because their egos won't allow them to realize a simple truth: they're wrong. They can't say, "Oops. I goofed. Sorry about that."

I doubt if KIP will answer the questions as to who it was that forced this reading. Blaming the Frosts because someone forced someone to read a book is like blaming the manufacturer of a whip for a beating someone gave you.

This is what happens when someone is a groupie. Logic, reason, and thinking go out the window. Only supporting what the group...or in this case, Mr. Drew--does is important.

It's sad to see how our educational system has failed to help students become logical thinkers.

Knowledge Is Power said...

Which one of you has asked the Frost's why they didn't perform this obscene ritual with their daughter? They and their daughter deny it. Now, if it's so all important, wouldn't they have proudly stated that yes they did, and it did her no harm?
Because they could be arrested?
Or...will one of you tell me that the statute of limitations has passed?
Not one of you has the guts to answer this question honestly, including and especially you Mr. and Mrs. Frost.

Knowledge Is Power said...

I doubt if KIP will answer the questions as to who it was that forced this reading. Blaming the Frosts because someone forced someone to read a book is like blaming the manufacturer of a whip for a beating someone gave you.


I simply picked it up and read it. There was no warning on the cover about it being a pedophilic instructional.

Shadowhawk said...

You know KIP i wonder if theres a brain in that head of yours.. Your more like a Parrot Awwk Pedophillic instructional Awwwk.. Bad Frost..Awwkkk. Face it, you are a bitter Drew groupie.. now go Fuck off like a good Little Drew Parrot

Mr-E-Anderson said...

KIP wrote: "I simply picked it up and read it. There was no warning on the cover about it being a pedophilic instructional."

Wow! It's absolutely amazing how totally powerless you are. Maybe it was something you drank. Maybe it was bad parenting. But for some reason you never learned how to close the book.

Not only that, but somehow, the book popped up out of nowhere and KIP "simply" had to pick it up and was apparently, by some unknown force, made to read it and was incapable of not reading it.

--sigh--

I hope people reading this see that this is NOT about the Frosts. It's about like KIP who make up bizarre excuses to fit their unsubstantiated beliefs. And note, that rather than simply admit that there are no victims, KIP keeps expanding and coming up with new complaints, just as I predicted.

It's quite typical of the behavior of groupies.

The Wiz said...

Isn't it nice of the Frosts to provide a place for their avowed enemies to post all kind of nasty accusations about them? Apparently, they don't censor any comments, either.

I'm so sorry that I spent the time to read this stuff.

Shadowhawk said...

Hi there Wiz..Hope lifes good down your way..

fenix said...

The Wiz said...
Isn't it nice of the Frosts to provide a place for their avowed enemies to post all kind of nasty accusations about them? Apparently, they don't censor any comments, either.

I'm so sorry that I spent the time to read this stuff.


Dad! Hiya!

Yeah, Gavin did say something about not being real tech-savvy. You'd think Jo would do something about this, though, . . .

Jim Hootsell said...

Waited until after Samhain, to see new Energy Flow on This Entertaining and Educational Site.

Remembered to take my medicine on waking from nap, detached from emotion, Observing normal human thought and word from all levels of developing personalities on this Pagan Discussion board.

Refuse to engage in slings and arrows of energy, I need all my energy just to focus on Living in the Present, clean and sober, making right choices about my part in our Neighborhood Watch program, and when to ask K9 officer to check on suspicious individuals.

Wiping tears of laughter from my blue eyes, and grateful I enjoyed natural endorphine release, before observing Intent of each move on the Chess Board.

We are all living in this moment, adding energy to our Future. Some of us have weakened arteries in our brain, ballooning out, waiting to burst. Enjoy having Flesh to rightfully possess, now, and develop your etheric senses before the heart stops, breathing stops, release from pain. Now, who do I choose for my next family, be reborn, cared for, protected from evil with the correct Guide?

Our Attitude, Now, is creating our future. No Butts, No Excuses. We are not at the top of the food chain.

Rhiannon said...

Oh man anderson! Are you blind or just can't understand english. I have never accused them of doing anything except writing a book I disagree with.
(read that again for anderson so he understand it)

Shadowhawk..... You have never been nice in the few months I have read your posts. If it makes you feel big to make fun and call names you go right ahead big guy. Karma is a Bitch.

But y'all know what? I am still going to stand against abuse like it or not. So call names make up lies I don't give a Flying Red Rats Ass because I know I am at least doing something good.
Oh and I am so very glad to know y'all are on Pagan Nation! Welcome aboard! Come to my blog sometime! :)